Document 1710920

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STATE OF MICHIGAN
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BUREAU OF SERVICES FOR BLIND PERSONS
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COMMISSION FOR BLIND PERSONS
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MEETING OF THURSDAY, MAY 16, 2013
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10:45 a.m.
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Michigan Library & Historical Center
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702 West Kalamazoo Street
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Lake Michigan Room - 3rd Floor
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Lansing, Michigan
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PRESENT:
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BUREAU OF SERVICES FOR BLIND PERSONS:
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Edward F. Rodgers, II, Director
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Sue Luzenski, Secretary
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COMMISSION FOR BLIND PERSONS:
Lylas G. Mogk, Chairperson
LeeAnn Buckingham
Marianne Dunn
Gary Gaynor
Michael J. Hudson
Josie Barnes-Parker
Joseph E. Sibley
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Audio Technician:
Julia Burdgick
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REPORTED BY: ERIN STILMAN, CSR-3588, RPR-19261
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Metro Court Reporters, Inc.
33231 Grand River Avenue
Farmington, Michigan 48336-3123
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Lansing, Michigan
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Thursday, May 16, 2013
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10:45 a.m.
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MS. MOGK:
Okay.
I'd like to call the
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meeting to order and welcome everybody this morning.
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I'm Lylas Mogk, the Chair of the Commission. And just
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in case anybody was not here for the previous
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meetings, I'm just going to review what our charge is,
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which is to study the needs of the citizens of Michigan
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who are blind and visually impaired, investigate,
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monitor, and evaluate the State programs that serve
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those citizens, and when appropriate, advise the
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Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs and the
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Bureau of Services to Blind Persons with respect to the
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coordination and administration of those programs, and
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recommend changes, as well as changes in state statutes
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and policies.
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appropriate recognition of the accomplishments of
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citizens of Michigan who are visually impaired.
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And we also have the charge of securing
This is our third meeting and it will
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serve to update us all on the activities of the three
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subcommittees since our second meeting in March, and
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also any updates the Director may have for us and
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questions we may have for him.
As you know all of our
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Commission meetings are public with the agenda provided
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and I'd like to welcome in particular the members of
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the public who are here and who may be tuning in from
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afar.
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question period reserved at the end of our meeting for
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any of your comments and questions.
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We are happy to have you join in and we have a
Again for those who have not been here
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at past meetings, I'd like everybody to introduce
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themselves, and I think we should include the people
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who are in the audience as well because it's a small
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enough group it would be nice if we all knew who we all
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are.
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So I'll start.
I'm an ophthalmologist
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and the Director of the Center for Vision
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Rehabilitation and Research for the Henry Ford System
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serving visually impaired individuals in the Detroit
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Metropolitan area.
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therapists who work with our patients and they are all
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and certified physical therapists as well as
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orientation and mobility specialists.
We have a team of occupational
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And we'll just proceed around the table.
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So why don't we start with Marianne at the far left and
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go around the table and then ask the people who are
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visiting to introduce yourself as well.
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Marianne?
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MS. DUNN:
Thanks, Lylas.
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Marianne Dunn, I'm from Grand Rapids.
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I'm a parent of 17-year-old twins who are both blind,
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and also serve on the Board of Michigan Parents of
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Children with Visual Impairments as the transition
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coordinator for that organization, and I practice as a
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clinical psychologist in Grand Rapids.
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MR. HUDSON:
Hello, I'm Mike Hudson.
I'm honored to be here, and I serve as Director of the
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Michigan State University Resource Center For Persons
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With Disabilities.
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minus five students who are blind or visually impaired
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on an ongoing basis there, so I'm happy to be here and
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happy to serve.
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At MSU, we've got about 35 plus or
MS. BUCKINGHAM:
Good morning.
I'm
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LeeAnn Buckingham.
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Okemos.
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After two years into the business, I became visually
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impaired.
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employees, and I've learned to a adapt to running my
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business with the new programs and assistance through
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the Commission.
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I own a business of 15 years in
I wasn't always blind.
I started my business.
Now in business there 15 years, I have eight
MR. SIBLEY:
Good morning, I'm Joe
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Sibley from the Grand Rapids area.
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blind for about 15 years now.
I've been legally
My other hat is
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President of the Michigan Council of the Blind and
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Visually Impaired.
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business where we do transcription to Braille and also
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some audio recordings and production.
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And also my wife Mary and I own a
MS. PARKER:
Good morning.
I'm Josie
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Parker.
I'm the Director of the Ann Arbor District
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Library in Ann Arbor, and also the Director of the
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Washtenaw County Library for the Blind and Physically
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Disabled.
I do have macular degeneration although it's
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monocular, and have been a patient of ophthalmology
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since I was five years old.
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here to serve the Commission.
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MR. GAYNOR:
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Hi.
I'm also very happy to be
Thank you.
I'm Gary Gaynor.
I'm President of
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the Visually Impaired Information Center.
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totally volunteer non-profit organization that just
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distributes the Directory of Vision Impaired Services.
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I passed my 37 year anniversary yesterday of being
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diagnosed with retinitus pigmentosa.
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We are a
And one of the reasons I'm happy to
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participate in this is I didn't know that the services
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were out there.
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I'd be totally blind in three years, and after 37 I
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still have a little bit of usable vision, so I know
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there are a lot of variances in all the stuff we do.
I didn't -- my ophthalmologist told me
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And I'm very honored to be on this Commission, and the
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more that we get involved, the more I'm happy I'm here.
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MR. RODGERS:
on?
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I'm Ed Rodgers -- is it
I'm Ed Rodgers and I'm the director of
BSBP.
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MS. LUZENSKI:
Hi.
I'm Sue Luzenski and
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I am Assistant to Director Rodgers for BSBP and also
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the Secretary to the Board.
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MS. CHINAULT:
I'm Sue -- is it on?
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It's not on.
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VIDEO TECHNICIAN:
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MS. CHINAULT:
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I'm Sue Chinault and I am the manager of
Okay.
Oh, it is.
Okay.
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the Braille and Talking Book Library in Lansing and
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your host.
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MS. EVANS:
I'm Karen Evans interested
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in being here.
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And I've been blind from retinitus pigmentosa,
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diagnosed at seven months and never had enough vision
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to read print.
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This is my first time for this meeting.
Thanks.
MR. POSONT:
My name is Larry Posont.
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I'm the President of the National Federation of the
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Blind in Michigan, the oldest organization of the blind
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in Michigan.
I have been blind since I was 16 but I
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went to the Michigan School of the Blind and I was in
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the vending program for 30 years and I retired in 2002.
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And I am very strong advocate for blind people.
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Currently I sat on the former Commission of the Board
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when it was the policy board.
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MR. SONTAG:
And I'm Joe Sontag.
I'm
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Second Vice President for the National Federation of
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the Blind in Michigan.
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since the age of 13 months, although I probably
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I have been officially blind
actually lost sight somewhat before that.
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I attended the Michigan School For the
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Blind when it really was the Michigan School For The
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Blind and graduated from Sexton High here in Lansing,
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and I have been a vendor and still have status as a
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potential operator of the program since late 1989 among
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other things.
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COURT REPORTER:
Stilman.
Hi.
My name is Erin
I'm the Court Reporter.
MS. BARNUM-YARGER:
Good morning.
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Valerie Barnum-Yarger.
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the State-Wide Independent Living Council.
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pleasure to be here.
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I'm
I'm the Executive Director of
MR. STANFORD:
Good morning.
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Douglas Stanford.
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Rehabilitation Services, executive member.
It's a
My name is
I work the Michigan Commission For
I'm also an
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advocate for disabled veterans.
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Nam Veteran, Michigan Disabled Veterans member, and
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member of the American Region here in Lansing.
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MR. KEN:
Hi, I'm Ken, Larry Posen's
driver.
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MR. RODGERS:
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MS. LUZENSKI:
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MS. MOGK:
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I'm a disabled Viet
Very important.
Go ahead.
Okay.
Lylas.
Thanks.
Welcome all.
The first order of business is to approve the
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transcript of the March 28th meeting which Sue was
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gracious enough to send sometime back.
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additions or corrections to the transcript?
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(No response.)
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Okay.
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If not, is there a motion to
approve?
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MS. PARKER:
MS. MOGK:
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MR. SIBLEY:
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MS. MOGK:
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I'll make the motion to
approve.
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Are there any
Is there a second?
I'll second.
All right.
Any discussion?
(No response)
Okay.
The transcript is approved from
the previous meeting.
And we'll proceed right on to the
subcommittee reports.
For those of you who are new,
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the Commission is sub-divided into three subcommittees
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which are this year focusing on three particular
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parts of the Bureau.
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the BEP Program, and the other is Consumer Services.
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So we will proceed beyond these at some point but for
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now those three are our main focus.
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One is The Training Center, one's
So we'll first hear from Marianne Dunn
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and Mike Hudson, who as the subcommittee for The
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Training Center.
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MS. DUNN:
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MR. HUDSON:
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MS. DUNN:
Do you want me to go ahead?
Please do.
Mike and I have really
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coordinated and spoken before the meeting recently
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anyway but one of the thoughts that, that has occurred
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to me since our visit has to do with wanting to get
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further clarification on exactly what we do at The
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Training Center, what we do well and what areas we want
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to develop or strengthen.
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Some of the thoughts that I had after
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touring this center, it seems as though we have the
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Adjustments to Blindness Program very well in place,
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and that it serves a population of adults who are
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coming into the center because they have lost their
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sight and the different programs address that period of
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adjustments for them.
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I think what Mike and I have both found
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ourselves thinking more about is the direct link
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between our training center and employing more blind
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people, and wanting to take a look at the transition
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point where people leave that center, what training is
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in place that allows them to become employed, is there
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more training we could provide at the center itself
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that would make that connection for individuals so that
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employment is much more likely to occur.
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We've begun to look into a couple of
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different training programs.
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on-line training facility, actually in Australia, but
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it is a program for visually impaired individuals that
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trains them to become computer, computer technicians
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for the Cisco Program which is a software company.
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They generally are in Asian companies and not as much
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our market, but as a model that's the kind of thing I
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think if we can try to establish more opportunity for
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individuals to move directly into training that would
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then move them directly into a position and start to
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decrease that 70 percent unemployment rate among blind
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adults.
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as parents in our parent organization working for the
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states.
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One is through a, an
That's certainly a mandate that we've taken on
So that kind of sums up some of the
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thoughts that have come to me and that Mike and I have
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touched base on briefly in that time since our visit.
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MR. HUDSON:
Okay.
With one group I'm
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going to go through some notes I have here to see if I
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can capture, we had a chance to actually tour that
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center, found it a really engaging process.
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that just prior to the last Commission meeting, and it
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remains a really nice facility frankly.
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treasure for our agency and our state.
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We did
I think it's a
So a few of my
highlights, observations, they're included.
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At this point we've, we've lost the
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Director of that agency or that subunit of this agency
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and so I think it's going to be imperative to identify
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the right trajectory going forward.
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opportunity we've really got to put a vibrant leader in
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there, somebody with a big vision for the future
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because I believe one of the things this Training
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Center needs to be is a jewel for the state and this
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organization.
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I think it's an
Anybody that's been blind for any period
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of time knows that's one of the best things you can do
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is get yourself an education, training, or prepare
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where you want to be located -- or even independent
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living-wise.
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unturned.
So I don't want to leave this opportunity
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But I can't help but thinking if we do
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this right that the Training Center doesn't have to
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be just a Training Center for Michigan, it could be a
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draw around the country because we've seen this happen
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at other programs. I've seen cases where people leave
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Michigan to receive training out of state for their
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signature opportunity, whether it be Lands World
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Services if you want to work for the IRS or other
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programs.
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So I'm really interested in developing some,
you know, core signature items there.
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I wondered as I, as I observed the
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facility I remember years ago I was there in '84 for my
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rehabilitation training experience, and I thought I
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remembered then the population being about 50 people.
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The capacity there isn't that high now.
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single rooms, and that effectively I believe is half
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the population that could reside there.
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People have
But as I looked around I asked myself is
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20 to 25 people the ideal population size for such a
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robust facility.
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large building.
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right population.
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into that.
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the types of programs you do there.
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It's 26 acres there.
It's quite a
And I just asked myself is that the
So I'm going to be digging deeper
That probably, that changes depending on
We did talk to people and have surveyed
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them.
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of time it took to get to the Training Center.
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realize that, you know, stories are that, and there's a
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lot of reasons why some people took a year or two on
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their self-report to get there.
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hand-shaking and the responses relating to are we ready
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to go there.
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close.
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may experience the delay.
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We heard all sorts of stories about the amount
Now we
Some of it is all the
And, you know, windows open and windows
If you're not ready when the window opens you
But on average they told us that three
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months’ waiting period. So I asked myself is that
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the right amount of waiting period so I want to look
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into that a little bit more as well.
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And if you've got a job in jeopardy case
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and you really need training is you want to look is
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three months acceptable or maybe that isn't really the
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reality for job in jeopardy cases.
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be.
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I think it may not
As I looked at what kind of signature
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programs we would probably develop there to make that a
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treasure for us -- an expanded treasure, it already is
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a treasure for us -- I thought about programs that
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could lead quickly to employment because that's the
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goal for a lot of people.
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blindness stop us from being effective.
You know, let's not let
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And can we find a way to build some
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exciting maybe branded experiences.
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right type of programs going, I know I'm not on the BEP
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program committee but I’m interested in that too because
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that's directly, directly applied to employment.
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If you can get the
If you can get some branding into this
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program, does BEP interact more closely with The
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Training Center in a way that gets you equipped.
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don't know.
I
Maybe it's a Starbucks, maybe it's a Taco
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Bell, get big name recognition behind your work.
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might afford you a whole range of opportunity, anything
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outside the BEP programs could you go and become a
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proprietor of a well-known chain somewhere and even
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have, you know, national latitude with that and
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probably a bigger clientele because people know the
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name.
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That
I'd be interested in programs that expand
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awareness or self awareness of what's possible.
I saw
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people there who had lost their vision in varying
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months of type and you could see some people were
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figuring out that blindness doesn't need to stop them
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from doing things and others I get the sense weren't
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aware of the future potential to them if they do the
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right things at the right time and really persist at
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it.
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So I'm really interested in programs
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there that would be signature for evidencing not only
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for the individual but for the broader community about
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how this disability doesn't need to stop you but it
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will cause you to be more creative maybe.
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Obviously one of the things I've
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realized in my own life is there's two keys to really
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having the platform from which to be successful.
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is a level of literacy, how can you access information
One
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and deal with information.
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programs, there ought to make really good use of
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technology and tools that will make people able to
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receive, process, and deal with information well, and
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then obviously orientation and mobility.
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So I think our signature
Being able to get around leads to
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confidence about yourself and about your ability to do
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a whole lot of things.
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of big drivers I think for having people to take the
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risks that are necessary to be effective.
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I promise I'm almost done.
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We did learn that people coming into
And self esteem actually is one
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that Training Center there's a fairly high prevalence
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of multiple disabilities and these require some unique
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thoughts about what are the needs and how do you make
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sure those folks get the best out of it.
We've heard
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about the significant chronic health issues.
Some
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people may be not even, being able to engage in the
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opportunity.
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And it's a big investment.
You know, if
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we carve out a window of 9 to 15 or even 20 weeks where
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you do that, it's imperative that you really are ready
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to engage in that.
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in going home because you couldn't engage the program
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and effectively we lost the spot there for some period
Otherwise, we have an early depart
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of time unless we're ready to get somebody in midstream
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on another, on another time window.
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So how do we, are we, maybe we already
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are, but how do we really understand the likelihood for
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people being meaningfully engaged in that program or
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are there different tracks that have to really help
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accentuate the multiple challenges some people
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experience while there.
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Those are a few of the highlights, and
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Marianne and I and Lylas are going to certainly to work
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together and put our heads together to help some of
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these observations become more streamlined and
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articulate and make sure we can make that Training
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Center.
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It's got a major renovation.
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great things to hopefully be able to propel it along
It's at a, it's at a cross-roads right now.
I think it's poised to do
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that channel.
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Thank you.
MS. MOGK:
Any questions for the
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Commission for them?
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Okay.
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MS. PARKER:
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MS. LUZENSKI:
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Can you guys make sure
you talk into the microphones.
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May I?
MS. PARKER:
Thank you.
This is Josie Parker.
One
of things that you'll hear from our report is our
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asking about the process of when a person first calls
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for, for assistance and how people identified to be
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candidates for the Training Center or not.
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When you were there and you spoke to the
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persons at, who run The Training Center and also who
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were receiving services there, did you talk about that
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with anyone at all about the process, not only the
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waiting period, but actually the process?
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And I'm interested in your observations
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about those persons with multiple disabilities and
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health issues that might prevent them from fully
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participating.
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person was accepted who was not necessarily healthy
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enough to complete the program?
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Did you have any indication about how a
MR. HUDSON:
of that.
I didn't get a great sense
I heard that story.
I didn't want to focus
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too much because in many places we were in kind of a
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public setting and this could get touchy at some point.
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MS. PARKER:
Okay.
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MR. HUDSON:
But we heard stories from
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people coming in through different channels, how
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recently were they experiencing blindness, and what
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part of the state did they come from, and maybe I think
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it's complex how the process worked.
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MS. PARKER:
MS. DUNN:
Okay.
We did speak with the
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director about those issues and there is, I think I
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think there are actually two nurse positions or at
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least there are nurses that do some assessment.
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don't know what level of assessment is done prior to
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their getting directed to The Training Center.
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their, that is part of their, their assessment process
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is having someone with medical background take a look.
I
But
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And I don't know, I don't recall, Lylas,
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if it was deteriorating conditions for individuals that
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made it hard for them to stay but --
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MS. MOGK:
Yeah, this is Lylas.
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Yeah, my understanding from that
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discussion was that much of the decision rests with the
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counselors and the Training Center didn't seem to feel
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that they had control over who is sent and whether they
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thought the person was appropriate or not, was not, was
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not the final decision.
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sure that the person's needs were met who were there,
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but not necessarily to say no, this person can only
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participate two hours a week so it's not appropriate.
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So that's an issue that needs to be further uncovered.
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And the nurse's role was to be
MS. PARKER:
asked.
Thank you.
That's why I
Thank you.
MS. MOGK:
Anything else right now about
the Training Center?
MS. DUNN:
Actually this is Marianne.
I
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did have one thing I wanted to add also is wanting to
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take a look further at how the IEP itself is used to
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tailor training, if at all.
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general document, and I'm wondering about the
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possibility of looking at the use of that document to
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help individualize and tailor some of the training that
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clients get at the Training Center, in addition to the
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more generalized adjustment programming that seems to
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be done very, very well at this point.
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MR. RODGERS:
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Is this on?
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MS. LUZENSKI:
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MR. RODGERS:
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I know it's a fairly
Madam Chair --
Yes.
Did you want me to comment
after each report with some information, or do you want
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me to save that for my remarks?
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MS. MOGK:
I think it would be fine to
comment after each one --
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MR. RODGERS:
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MS. MOGK:
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-- so that we keep the topics
consolidated.
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Okay.
MR. RODGERS:
Okay.
Can I have about
two minutes?
MS. MOGK:
Sure.
MR. RODGERS:
Absolutely.
Okay.
And I made some
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notes so I hope I didn't miss anything that Marianne
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and Michael told us.
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the Training Center, Kissell, who is a vehicle rehab
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counselor with about 16, 17 year’s experience. She is
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the acting director and she is involved in running the
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Training Center right now.
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We do have an acting director at
She comes to that position as the head
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of the regional district which includes most of west
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Michigan and part of the Upper Peninsula, et cetera.
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She is going to be a candidate for the position
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although we're going to post the position and there
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will be many other fine qualified individuals applying.
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We just got approval to fill that
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position through the department.
I had to usher that
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through a little bit because they're always
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scrutinizing money, et cetera.
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service waiting final approval so that we can go ahead
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and post it.
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It is now at civil
I anticipate that the vacancy will be
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posted very early in June.
We will make sure that the
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posting goes national.
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will go to the National Federation.
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American Council, et cetera.
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the, on the websites and with cooperation of Larry
It will go to the NCASB.
It
It will go to the
It will also be posted on
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Prasant who will make sure it gets on Newsline.
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might even put it on the bid line for the BEP because
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we want to make sure that everybody has an opportunity
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to know.
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And we
And we will keep the window for applying
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open for two weeks.
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is a week but I think because of the significance of
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the Training Center and the fact that it is a very
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important part of our total program, and it's an
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important decision, it's probably the most important
20
decision I will have made as Director so far as last
21
October as to who gets that position.
22
cognizant of the importance of where the direction goes
23
to the Training Center.
24
25
Normally the window for applying
So we're
Let me comment on a couple of other
remarks by the subcommittee.
In terms of out of,
22
1
out-of-state training, we are in the process of looking
2
at some of that.
3
she's only acting, she's taken on the duty of preparing
4
a new management plan for the center.
5
early on, the former director resigned, and we're
6
looking at what we can improve and what needs to be
7
changed at The Training Center.
8
9
Lisa is preparing a, even though
As was stated
So Lisa is in the process of preparing
for the management executive committee of the bureau a
10
management report and one of the issues she'll be
11
addressing in there is out-of-state training versus
12
in-state training versus the Training Center
13
utilization.
14
I think you mentioned, Michael, the
15
rooms.
It's my understanding, keep in mind I've only
16
been here since last October, it's my understanding
17
that the only reason we may have had capacity at one
18
time for 50 is that we were putting two people to a
19
room?
20
MR. HUDSON:
21
MR. RODGERS:
Right.
And that we found out over
22
years that it worked much better if people had their
23
own room.
24
And if you look at our numbers over the last three or
25
four years I think you will find that in 2008 or 2009
So I realize that cuts down on our numbers.
23
1
we serviced approximately 160 individuals.
2
The numbers have dropped because part of
3
the time we were not in the Training Center, we were
4
remodeling.
5
located in a hotel or another building.
And then for a period of time we were also
6
MS. LUZENSKI:
7
MR. RODGERS:
Correct.
So the numbers are really
8
skewed if you look at the last three years.
We are
9
just now getting back up to speed for all of that.
So
10
we have to keep that in mind when we, when we look at
11
what the numbers are in the rooms, et cetera.
12
We're obviously going to look at all of
13
this in Lisa's proposed management plan.
14
that we may discover that looking at intake and in a
15
more complete manner that some people would do well
16
with a roommate and others wouldn't.
17
be a case by case so that maybe we can have 35 at a
18
time instead of the 25 or 30.
19
individuals.
20
And it may be
Maybe that should
It will depend upon the
Lisa is in her management plan putting
21
priorities together for the Training Center, and we
22
will share that obviously with the Commission once it's
23
complete.
24
then the public will also be able to access that
25
through the Freedom of Information Act if they wanted
And once it's, once a final draft is done
24
1
2
to look at it.
Branding is something that I think I was
3
going to report in my report at the end.
I'll just say
4
that we're getting into branding.
5
of actually negotiating our first franchise, and I'll
6
give you more information about that when I get to my
7
general remarks.
We're in the process
8
I think I mentioned the management plan.
9
Technologically, we are working with the
10
System Seven people who are our computer company Libra
11
that does all our voc. rehab reports and data
12
collection, et cetera.
13
it will be early fall a new continuing education
14
training program for all the employees to make sure
15
that the data is entered into System Seven correctly,
16
and that we get the results.
17
We are planning for most likely
Up until now, which shocked me when I
18
discovered this, the Training Center was not in the
19
System Seven program, and we're going to correct that
20
so that what will happen is the counselors and teachers
21
at the Training Center will have access to the client's
22
total file, and the counselors out in the field will
23
have access to what's going on at the Training Center.
24
25
So it's a matter where, where
Commissioner Hudson is correct that the technology is
25
1
going to go a long ways towards improving our services
2
I think so we're pretty much on top of that.
3
And Mike Pemble, my deputy, has been
4
working with the System Seven administrator and they've
5
held about six meetings so far, and they've already
6
started the project in terms of moving forward with
7
getting everybody in the System Seven and updating and
8
improving System Seven.
9
The screening is something that bothered
10
me when I first came on board, Commissioner Dunn.
11
agree with both you and Commissioner Hudson that the
12
screening didn't appear to be as thorough as I would
13
like it, I don't know about anybody else.
14
first question I asked the first month or two on the
15
job was:
16
who have severe enough, either multiple disabilities or
17
one disability which prevents them from participating
18
in a majority?
19
being offered.
20
I
And the
Why do we have people in the Training Center
I use the word majority of the programs
I realize that some people may only
21
because of age or health or whatever be able to
22
participate in maybe three-quarters of what's being
23
offered, but we have people that are only able to
24
participate in 20 percent.
25
utilization of these resources.
I think that's a poor
And we are working on
26
1
reviewing and improving the screening technology.
2
In terms of the R.N.s, I want the R.N.s
3
more involved in the initial screening because they do
4
bring that expertise with us.
5
getting approval to hire a third R.N. so that we have
6
three on staff which will pretty much cover every time
7
slot that we have.
8
flexibility of getting involved in that process of
9
deciding who should come into the Training Center and
10
11
We are in the process of
And that will allow us the
who shouldn't.
We're also in the process at least a
12
management plan of creating a system which will have
13
four terms during the year, the terms will be nine or
14
ten weeks long.
15
mini sessions around the state, and we will hold
16
several slots for priority candidates who go through
17
the mini so that we do have the ability then, as
18
Commissioner Hudson pointed out, when jobs are in
19
threat, being threatened, if we have a couple spots
20
open following the mini, this will allow us the
21
flexibility of scheduling those people, bringing them
22
in so that we don't have to wait three months.
23
Each term will begin with one of our
I'm not sure I know what the appropriate
24
waiting time is.
We're going to obviously make some
25
decisions and reviews of that.
We would welcome the
27
1
Commission's input as to what you think is reasonable.
2
I am told that the MRS Training Center
3
has a waiting time of about 30 to 45 days.
4
know if MRS considers that appropriate or not either.
5
And they have a lot more rooms than we do.
6
like 100 rooms or something like that.
7
facility that they have.
8
and we're aware of those issues.
9
Now I don't
They have
It's a huge
So we are looking at all that
The IEP is probably not, and
10
Commissioner Dunn I think is correct, is probably not
11
being utilized as much as we would like them to.
12
needs to be better communication between the field
13
counselors and the counselor/teachers who are at the
14
center.
15
Seven that's going to help that and that's one of the
16
key areas that's going to be involved in Lisa's
17
proposed management plan.
We believe that with the updating of System
18
19
So I think that pretty much covers all
the issues, Madam Chair, that the Commissioners raised.
20
21
22
There
MS. MOGK:
Any, any comments further or
questions?
MR. HUDSON:
Director Rodgers, one, one
23
thought I might have and maybe two weeks is good enough
24
time but I'm wondering if you might create a more
25
compelling opportunity if that position was posted
28
1
nationally for a month or two.
2
we're posting we want to have a flagship leadership
3
type position and make sure it's out there long enough.
4
And I don't know if state protocol allows you to do
5
that but I'm concerned that the highly-talented person
6
that you might be looking for would have already an
7
engagement process and wouldn't be nimble enough to
8
jump on a two-week window, or it may even look like
9
it's short enough to pursue an outside source a chance
10
Usually at MSU when
to consider it, so to what extent is that flexible.
11
And then also, I'm not sure, I've not
12
seen the position description so to what extent did it
13
look like an exciting posting or did it look like a
14
bureaucracy state kind of posting?
15
MR. RODGERS:
I must confess if I read
16
it I would call it a bureaucratic document, but that's
17
required, the position description is a civil service
18
requirement that's, for better or for worse, I have to
19
follow.
20
language in it, and the position description has to
21
follow civil service rules, the announcement will
22
obviously give us a little flexibility and there's also
23
a process, I can't remember, Sue's going to leap in
24
here for just a second, there's a document that we
25
prepare --
So while the posting will have general
29
1
Is it called the Selection Plan?
2
MS. LUZENSKI:
3
It's an Interview and
Selection Process.
4
MR. RODGERS:
It's an Interview and
5
Selection Process, so that document is a little more
6
detailed and not as, not as dry as the position
7
description.
8
MR. HUDSON:
9
MR. RODGERS:
10
Okay.
So that will help.
In terms of having a long window of one
11
to two months, I really would like to get the issue
12
settled sooner rather than later.
13
know, the year is flying by, the older I get the more
14
it flies by.
15
two-month posting, then even after you do your
16
interviews and your selection it takes a week or two to
17
process through civil service, we're talking August or
18
maybe even September if we go that long.
19
We're almost to June.
Two months -- you
If we did a
I will entertain the thought of
20
stretching it out to three weeks.
21
make some valid points in making sure nationally that
22
everybody has the opportunity.
23
service will criticize me for three weeks.
24
25
MR. HUDSON:
I think, I think you
And I don't think civil
I appreciate that.
I'm
really excited that that will be a vibrant and exciting
30
1
announcement then, and that we create it --
2
MR. RODGERS:
3
MR. HUDSON:
Hope it will.
-- that really says we're
4
serious about finding the best candidate nationally
5
because I think we're at likely inflection point for
6
this program.
7
I looked at the cost of running that
8
program and there were different numbers and some of
9
them because of special renovations that were occurring
10
and maybe still some of those occurring.
11
a fairly high cost per person program to run so I
12
really want to get the best out of it.
13
MR. RODGERS:
It looks like
Let me, let me comment on
14
that because that's an issue that Lisa and I discussed
15
last week or the beginning of this week, again the days
16
run together, and the figure that we have had or
17
utilized over the years is about $2,200 per student per
18
week.
19
I have discovered in being a mole and
20
kind of digging a little bit that that figure is based
21
on everything imaginable in the cost of running my
22
bureau.
23
when we're looking at what does it actually cost to
24
train somebody.
25
And I think it's an inappropriate basis to use
For example, I have to set aside money
31
1
every year in my budget to cover contingent health care
2
costs for retirees.
3
and I know we've got some CPA's or accountants in the
4
group here, to include that figure in the cost of
5
training I think is inappropriate.
6
inflates the figure. So I've got Lisa as one of her
7
80,000 projects that I've given her when she became
8
acting director working on what I believe will be more
9
true figures. My guess it's going to be more like 12 to
10
1,300 when you pull out all the stuff that shouldn't be
11
in there.
Certainly to include that figure,
12
MR. HUDSON:
13
MS. DUNN:
So I think that
Okay.
Director Rodgers, I have one
14
follow-up question regarding the dividing of the
15
calendar year into the four, nine or ten weeks, is that
16
a decision or is there room for some discussions around
17
the implications of that?
18
MR. RODGERS:
Well, the discussion is
19
still open because I don't have Lisa's plan yet.
20
are simply preliminary statements I'm making.
21
These
What we have discovered -- how can I put
22
this so I sound politically correct -- the former
23
director and I had some philosophical differences, both
24
in the day-to-day management and the overall view of
25
the Training Center.
32
1
One of the things that she and I did
2
agree on was that the statistics clearly showed that
3
the average stay for a trainee was 9.4 weeks.
4
you look at a training module that's nine or ten weeks,
5
that encompasses the majority of the students.
6
almost 80 percent of the students fall within that
7
range.
8
that need to be there longer is to bring them back the
9
next term.
10
11
It's
What we would do to accommodate those people
MS. DUNN:
That's inconsistent with some
of what we heard from the Director.
12
13
So when
MR. RODGERS:
Well, which Director are
we talking about?
14
MS. DUNN:
Director Boone, had an issue
15
with that figure, and I can't go into the details about
16
it because I'm not sure.
17
MR. RODGERS:
Sure.
Well, remember I, I
18
wasn't here before October 1st so I have no idea when
19
you folks -- I guess you talked to her after I was on
20
board?
21
MS. DUNN:
22
MR. RODGERS:
23
24
25
Yeah, yeah.
Let's just say some of her
statistics and mine don't match.
MS. DUNN:
Well, statistics aside, some
of the focus that I would like to be able to address
33
1
has to do with the IPE and individualized training and
2
taking a look at what works best for the client.
3
I think likely we would run into
4
individuals who would need more than nine or a lot
5
fewer, so I'm wondering functionally are we going to
6
have a nine-week system anyway, and then if we do try
7
to impose that is it a little bit counter to our
8
individualized focus in terms of what people need.
9
those would be the issues I would want to address in
10
11
So
the decision.
MR. RODGERS:
Well, historically we have
12
claimed to be an individualized Training Center but we
13
haven't been because in the past our philosophy has
14
been you come here, you take every class we offer for
15
10 or 12 or 15 weeks, or 20 weeks or three months or
16
whatever, until we feel you're ready to go.
17
complaints I've gotten from former and present students
18
in talking with them and visiting with them was that I
19
only came here to get -- I need A, B and C, I don't
20
need D, E and F.
21
MS. DUNN:
22
MR. RODGERS:
And the
Exactly.
And we are looking at that
23
as a training module that there would be slots.
For
24
example, like MSU did when I was in college there many
25
years ago, you have their summer terms, they have
34
1
six-weeks terms, eight-week terms, and twelve-week
2
terms all summer, and the training module would account
3
for that.
4
dentist who is on the verge of coming into the Training
5
Center who has lost his sight, and does not want to
6
learn Braille.
7
everything with adaptive equipment, I need some
8
mobility training, I need some life-skills, I need some
9
help with adaptive equipment, but I'm not going to
Because I use the example of an 80-year-old
His comment is I'm 80 years old, I do
10
spend my time, I've only got a little time left at age
11
80, to learn Braille.
12
spend 8 or 10 weeks working on Braille I think is a
13
waste of his or her time, as well as the Training
14
Center staffs' time.
15
And to force that person to
MS. MOGK:
This is Lylas.
I would
16
suggest as I think Marianne has that the concept of
17
tailoring the program to individual needs conflicts
18
with the concept of set timeframes, regardless of what
19
goes on within that timeframe.
20
need less.
21
need nine weeks to do it.
22
As you said many people
If you're going to do one thing you may not
So that I think that the whole
23
discussion of how the Training Center is structured in
24
part intrinsic to that is decisions about schedule and
25
timing.
So I think that's probably our concern about
35
1
having a decision made ahead of time.
2
ahead of time, I mean before we have had an opportunity
3
to put in all of our observations and suggestions is a
4
concern.
5
6
MR. RODGERS:
And when I say
We'll address that
concern.
7
MS. MOGK:
8
Is there anything else about the
9
Okay.
Training Center?
10
11
Okay.
Okay.
Let's proceed to the BEB
subcommittee which is LeeAnn Buckingham and Joe Sibley.
12
MS. BUCKINGHAM:
Good morning.
My name
13
is LeeAnn and I am looking forward to working with the
14
operators.
15
that I will -- or the operators that I'll be working
16
with so I can shadow them and have a better
17
understanding of how they run their businesses.
Ed Rodgers is now setting up the vendors
18
So what I'm mostly interested in is the
19
business part of how they run their business as far as
20
their accounting, how they run their credit card, what
21
kind of banking, how they handle their cash.
22
that they have a set system but I'm curious to see how
23
they, they have adapted to the way they're doing things
24
or if there's a better way.
25
I know
I have learned by my own experience to
36
1
create new ways of maintaining my own business.
2
would be real interested in shadowing the operators.
3
I'm hoping to work or shadow at least two to three
4
different carts, food carts.
5
how they are buying their or ordering their supplies
6
and how they maintain their equipment.
7
So I
I'm also interested in
Let's see; I have a couple other notes
8
here.
But I feel that being able to work with them I
9
may be able to help and they also might help me with my
10
business.
11
lot of energy, and I'm hoping that, that maybe all food
12
carts could be run similarly and the same equipment. The
13
franchise idea I think is a great idea, everything set
14
up the same.
15
happening.
16
But I have a lot of good ideas and I have a
It may be an easier way to control what's
Also I understand that when operators
17
are ill that they have someone that would come in and
18
fill in, the temporaries, and how long they're actually
19
serving concerns me, if it's two years or more not
20
being visually impaired.
21
figure out a way that we could get someone in there
22
sooner.
23
training facilities and how quickly they can get these
24
individuals trained, assess if they're capable of
25
running a business, how soon they can get these
I was hoping that we could
And that also, kind of look back at the
37
1
students in or applicants in for testing for their math
2
skills, I know that could be an issue; where are they
3
taking their testing; are they going to LCC or are they
4
going, having their testing at the Kalamazoo Center,
5
I'm not sure how that's done.
6
from my understanding it's taking sometimes a little
7
long for these operators to start working the cart.
8
9
But I know that just
So I feel after running my business for
15 years and adapting to being blind that I'm pretty
10
savvy, fast.
I speak slowly, I get a little nervous, but
11
I really give everything to my work and to my
12
employees.
13
employees, the benefits they give their employees.
14
I also I would like to see how they
I'm curious how they handle their
15
manage their accounting, do they hire their own CPA, do
16
they have a PA [sic] that helps them.
17
I would hire people that can see that work for me.
18
there's a lot of, like I said there would be a lot of
19
different questions, new questions after I've actually
20
worked and followed with the operators.
21
give some time, more than just a couple days.
22
So thank you.
23
MR. SIBLEY:
I would not see,
So
I'm willing to
This is Joe and I want to
24
give LeeAnn credit too.
She asked to job shadow a
25
couple of the vendors and I think that's a splendid
38
1
idea.
2
As for myself as I mentioned at the last
3
meeting, first it's nice to be here in person this
4
time.
5
that's, I'll put it lightly.
6
7
It worked out much better with the technology,
MR. GAYNOR:
We're happy to have you
MR. SIBLEY:
But I did attend the EOC
too.
8
9
meeting, Elected Operators Committee Meeting in March,
10
and I plan to attend more of their meetings as I can.
11
I found that quite interesting to try to get the pulse
12
of some of the operators.
13
of the operators individually and I'd like to talk to
14
more.
15
going well and things that are going not.
I've also been talking to some
I want to know specifics of things that are
16
As for the operators I found something
17
that I'm kind of interested in, the varying degree of
18
attitudes, some of them are taking their business and
19
running with it and really creating a pretty good
20
living for themselves and thinking outside the box and
21
others feel that they need to have their hands held a
22
little bit more.
23
So I'm finding quite a difference of
24
variation of attitude among the operators so that's
25
been something that's kind of interesting.
Some are
39
1
very enthused about the franchising idea which I think
2
is a tremendous idea for the right operator, and some
3
are kind of resistant to that.
4
people and different ideas about the training.
5
say the training is weak, some say the training is
6
great, so I'm trying to follow that.
7
Also there's different
Some
We did have, LeeAnn, Lylas and I had a
8
half-hour meeting with Constance Zanger, the BEP
9
manager which was quite interesting.
I think they
10
asked the pretty hard questions, pretty upfront with
11
it, then we talked for a couple of hours after that.
12
But there are some -- one of the things going into this
13
subcommittee, one of the reasons I asked to be on this
14
particular subcommittee is I want to find out why there
15
has been in the past somewhat of an adversarial
16
relationship between the agency and the operators, and
17
I think that we're opening up some, hopefully opening
18
up some channels of communication where we can look at
19
this.
20
I am finding some situations when I talk
21
to some of the operators.
I'm going to give you one
22
specific right here that I'm going to mention very
23
generally in this public meeting, I think it's
24
something that we need to look at in detail later.
25
had a conversation with an operator.
I
He was -- he is
40
1
visually impaired.
2
operator at the Grand Rapids Hall of Justice.
3
asked him to take over for the customer in Battle
4
Creek, the food service there.
5
He was a successful temporary
And they
He came in and it seemed to be a perfect
6
storm of miscommunications and people that dropped the
7
ball on this one.
8
at anybody and say it's your fault, but I think it's
9
something that needs to be examined and to find out
So I'm not here to point the finger
10
especially so this doesn't happen again and see if the,
11
does the bureau still have any responsibility here to
12
correct the situation.
13
He arrived, like I said he was a
14
successful operator at the Justice Center, and he ran a
15
business by himself before.
16
notes here.
17
support with financial management, and that didn't
18
happen.
19
with menu planning, and that didn't happen.
20
told when he went down there that there would be a
21
staff in place and three weeks worth of inventory.
22
When he arrived the first day there was basically no
23
inventory and no staff.
24
daughter had to run out and buy food, and come back and
25
prepare about 240 meals that day out of his pocket.
I'm trying to read my
He was promised in his agreement to have
He was promised that there would be menu help
He was
I think it was he and his
41
1
So that was a problem from day one and
2
kind of put him behind the eight ball.
3
situation dealing with the military, also it was a
4
special, they require so many staff, so many cooks for
5
meals served that day which does add to your employment
6
costs.
7
the military has a lot of requirements, like end of the
8
day on your salad bar you have to throw everything out,
9
it doesn't matter, nothing can be retained.
10
11
This is a
Also their food costs were quite high because
That's
just their way of doing things.
I think the, one of the questions too is
12
that I brought up with Constance is training of the
13
temporary operators but this particular operator also
14
went through the BEP training actually at the end of
15
what he was doing the service at Fort Custer and
16
successfully completed that training.
17
Another thing that went wrong, he was
18
supposed to get 30-day’s notice when the position would
19
end and he was given ten days.
20
dropped, the ball was dropped in a lot of ways.
21
unfortunately because of this he didn't complete his
22
BEP training successfully, was not on the list of
23
potential operators because of the debt he incurred
24
because of this.
25
A lot of things were
And
I should mention too, this operator
42
1
fully admits that he dropped the ball on some elements
2
too, that there were, especially with filing paperwork
3
and such like that, although he does have
4
documentation, he's got comment cards from the people
5
he served saying the food was great, he did the job
6
well, but I think he walked into a situation that would
7
have been very difficult at best even if it had gone
8
well.
9
So unfortunately this operator finds
10
himself, he can't bid on a facility because of the
11
debts he's got with the bureau, plus he's got thousands
12
and thousands of dollars in debt from his employee
13
taxes and stuff like that, so his life is pretty
14
difficult right now.
15
This -- and his goal is simply to see if
16
he can work out, figure how he can get this off his
17
back because unfortunately it was a situation where he
18
walked in to get a better life and he's come up with
19
his life crushed.
20
he has his own independent food business right now, one
21
of our libraries in the Grand Rapids area, and he's
22
making a modest living, but I think this was one of the
23
situations that needs to be examined top to bottom with
24
this operator and the involved people and find out what
25
went wrong, how could this have been avoided.
And he, in this particular situation
43
1
And we do have a meeting set up with all
2
the promotional agents on June 20th which I'm looking
3
forward to.
4
appropriate time unless we want to set up a separate
5
meeting with BSBP.
I'm thinking maybe this would be an
6
But I am looking forward to talking to
7
other operators as well, spending more time with the
8
EOC, and finding out more what's going on.
9
there's issues on both sides of the aisle here that
I think
10
need to be addressed, both among the operators and
11
among the Bureau, and hopefully we can create some kind
12
of a situation long-term here where they can work in a
13
more cohesive manner.
14
Also like to do research on what's
15
working and not working in other states as well.
So
16
we've got a long ways to go as far as finding out where
17
the holes are.
18
for quite a while and I hope this is something that's
19
going to be addressed, it seems to me like there is a
20
lack of synergy among the different departments.
21
the BEP is in one corner, and The Training Center is in
22
one corner, and voc. rehab is another corner and they
23
don't always seem to work real well among the various
24
departments.
25
looked at in the future.
One of my observations with the bureau
And I'm hoping it's something that's
Like
44
1
But in the meantime more time, I would
2
like to see more operators, I hope they spend more time
3
with management, and hopefully by the end of our time
4
working on the project we can create some kind of a
5
situation and look at the structure and see where the
6
holes are and maybe make it a much better situation for
7
all parties concerned.
And that's all I have.
8
MS. MOGK:
Thank you, LeeAnn and Joe.
9
Are there any questions or comments?
10
Ed, do you have any?
11
MR. RODGERS:
Thank you, thank you.
12
LeeAnn, in terms of the equipment and the ordering I
13
think what I'm going to ask Constance Zanger to do is
14
to put together a memo for you explaining those
15
procedures.
Would that be helpful?
16
MS. BUCKINGHAM:
17
MR. RODGERS:
18
MS. BUCKINGHAM:
19
MR. RODGERS:
Yes, it would.
Okay.
Thank you.
And I should also indicate
20
that it's my understanding that we're in the process of
21
getting some dates and some operators for you to visit
22
and we'll coordinate that with you.
23
24
25
And Joe, did you want to be part of that
too?
MR. SIBLEY:
I would be interested if we
45
1
can do something in the Grand Rapids area.
2
MR. RODGERS:
3
MR. SIBLEY:
4
5
Okay.
I'd like to find somebody I
could follow around, it would be good.
MR. RODGERS:
Okay.
Good.
6
sure you get included in that.
7
important thing for you to be involved in.
8
MS. PARKER:
9
MR. RODGERS:
10
MS. PARKER:
11
We'll make
I think that's an
Director Rodgers?
Yes.
Could I ask that all of the
commissioners receive the memo explaining that process.
12
MR. RODGERS:
13
MS. PARKER:
Absolutely.
Because I agree with Joe.
14
We're all doing separate subcommittees but there's so
15
much overlap in the whole department and it would help
16
fill in some blanks where we wouldn't have to ask all
17
the questions all the time and that would be a great
18
thing to know that too.
19
MR. RODGERS:
20
MS. PARKER:
21
MR. RODGERS:
We will do that.
Thank you.
We will try to have it
22
done in the next 30 days for you, okay.
The reason
23
it's going to take us a little while to do it is that
24
Constance is involved right now in the franchising
25
which we're working on the agreement with the branding
46
1
company.
2
She's also involved right now in, we had
3
a summary suspension of the operator in the Capital
4
building.
5
because there will be a hearing on the issue, there
6
were allegations of no stock.
7
of health violations, which as a casual observer I was
8
in there the other day, we've gotten a cleaning company
9
in there.
Without going into details, et cetera,
There were allegations
10
What's the name, Sue?
11
MS. LUZENSKI:
In-Service Master.
12
MR. RODGERS:
We had the In-Service
13
Master in there.
14
it needs a thorough cleaning.
15
of getting somebody temporarily in there to run it.
16
Constance is involved in that.
17
It was so dirty, quite frankly, that
So we're in the process
So
She's also involved in the franchising
18
where we are working at getting the State Plate opened up
19
again, that's in the Anderson Building, House of
20
Representatives.
21
on that in about the middle of June.
22
We expect to have some announcements
In terms of the length of temporary
23
help, it's my understanding that it depends upon the
24
location and whether or not there's anybody that's even
25
interested in taking over some of the routes.
47
1
There is an issue, for example, in Port
2
Huron, and Constance and her office is working on that.
3
And we certainly don't want to use the rules and the
4
regs that allow us to have temporary operators in there
5
to take the job of somebody who would be a permanent
6
operator.
7
and we're going to make sure that that does not happen.
So we're cognizant that that is a problem
8
We are in the process of addressing the
9
training of, individual training of the BEP operators.
10
Some of them go through the Training Center.
And then
11
there's a BEP training module that's being re-examined.
12
I'm in the process of getting permission
13
to hire a Director of Training for the BEP program
14
whose responsibilities will include promotion,
15
training, guidance, assistance with operators that are
16
already in business, et cetera.
17
will be a specialized position, and I expect that
18
posting to be up some time in June.
19
In other words, it
I've gotten internal, I think I've
20
gotten over ever hurdle internally with the department
21
to create this position.
22
getting Civil Service’s okay which will take a little bit
23
longer because of the new position, and we have to
24
justify it to civil service.
25
I'm in the process now of
I did get some issues straightened out
48
1
in the budget for 2014 in terms of getting our
2
headcount ceiling lifted.
3
details now, I spent a couple weeks doing that.
4
these are some of the things I do everyday.
5
Without going into all those
So
So I think you'll be pleased with the
6
fact that we'll have somebody that will be individually
7
for the training and the continuing assistance to
8
operators.
9
10
11
Well, I already mentioned Connie doing a
memo for you.
The promotional agents -- and I want to
12
make a comment for the record, so to speak, because
13
I've tried to keep a hands-off attitude with this
14
Commission's work.
15
interviews or meetings.
16
made that so-and-so told me this.
17
don't know what people said or didn't say to you when
18
you met with them.
19
I haven't shown up at any of the
That's when there's comments
I'm not there so I
But I've purposely not wanted to be
20
involved in any of your meetings with my employees.
21
The only thing I asked Chairman Mogk for was just keep
22
me in the loop so I know where people are.
23
wanted you to be able to talk to them one-on-one and
24
get their opinions and their views without the boss
25
being there, so to speak, looking over their shoulder,
But I
49
1
because I think that would taint the system.
2
So I also won't be there when you meet
3
with the promotional agents, and I'm assuming that you
4
don't want Constance or James Hull there either, is
5
that correct?
6
MR. SIBLEY:
7
MR. RODGERS:
8
MR. SIBLEY:
9
10
Not necessarily.
Okay.
I wouldn't object to them,
to them being there because they could answer questions
as well.
11
MR. RODGERS:
Okay.
So I guess if
12
you -- LeeAnn, if you or Joe could send me an e-mail
13
indicating who you want there on the 20th for sure, if
14
you want the promotional agents, and James and/or
15
Constance, I'll make sure they're there.
16
MS. BUCKINGHAM:
17
MR. SIBLEY:
18
MR. RODGERS:
19
MR. SIBLEY:
Okay.
Director Rodgers?
Please, Ed.
One thing popped into mind,
20
there was information voted on recently about another
21
bill in the house that would again appear to have the,
22
take away the exclusivity of operators in the
23
buildings.
24
It seems to be yet another try on that.
25
Are you aware of any development on that?
MR. RODGERS:
It's really not -- I look
50
1
upon it the way I did with the one that was introduced
2
in December, it's just another shot across our file to
3
tell us that we have some changes that have to be made
4
with the program, and of course the audit report beat
5
the program up pretty good.
6
making the corrective action plan be fulfilled that the
7
auditors gave us.
8
9
And we're working on, on
And at the same time I think with what
we're doing, we're negotiating now with the House of
10
Representatives with a franchise company, the DTMB and
11
the Governor's office are advised of everything that's
12
going on in terms of what we're going to do and I think
13
what we're going to do at the State Plate or the
14
Anderson Building however you want to refer to it is
15
going to eliminate a lot of the concerns and criticism
16
from individual representatives and/or senators.
17
But you have to understand sometimes how
18
senators and reps work, and I'll give you an example,
19
I've been trading phone calls for a day with a staffer
20
from the Senate who had a complaint from the operator
21
that we summarily suspended.
22
this, when they get a call from a constituent or
23
somebody who might be a constituent and crank the
24
agency and then we have to respond to that of course.
25
Reps do this, senators do
The person that has introduced the bill
51
1
is a person who is concerned about the program, not
2
necessarily against the program, and the bill is just
3
sitting there.
4
this point.
5
spokesperson for the Speaker of the House that I'm not
6
to worry about it at this point, to keep working on
7
your project that you're doing to get the State Plate
8
opened, and it's all going to work out in the long-run.
9
It's not, it's not moving anyplace at
And I've been reassured by the
We just got help yesterday from the
10
speaker's office and with the committee that's in
11
charge of our funding to up our headcount.
12
107, they're going to up it to 113 is my understanding
13
which will give us more flexibility in filling some of
14
the positions to be filled.
15
It was at
So I think we're okay with the
16
legislature right now.
17
jinx myself because we're in what I would call the last
18
lap of a mile race, and there's 4 laps generally on a
19
track of a mile race and I think we just got the gun
20
and we're in the fourth lap now in terms of finalizing
21
this first project with the franchise.
22
Knock on wood, I don't want to
So once that's done I think that will
23
pretty much take care of the legislative concerns.
24
sorry to be so winded.
25
Chair, unless there's any more questions.
And that's all I have Madam
I'm
52
1
MS. MOGK:
Okay.
I think we're ready to
2
move on to consumer services with Josie Parker and Gary
3
Gaynor.
4
MS. PARKER:
Thank you, Gary.
And I did
5
manage to talk after two meetings that we've held with
6
Dr. Mogk at regions.
7
the eastern region of Detroit, and we met at the
8
central region.
9
region.
10
We did visit, and I think it's
We still have to go to the western
And I'd like to publicly thank the folks at
both those locations for their time.
11
At the central -- at the a eastern
12
region we met in late April with Gwen McNeal, the
13
Regional Director; Tammy Hough, the rehabilitation
14
counselor; Shawnese Laury-Johnson, also a
15
rehabilitation counselor.
16
At the central region we met with Beth
17
White, a regional manager; Debbie Wilson, Assistant
18
Regional Manager; Marcianna Wade, a rehabilitation
19
counselor; and Nicole Wright, a rehabilitation
20
counselor.
21
I would particularly like to thank the
22
folks at the central region.
They welcomed us into
23
their location.
24
room with coffee and donuts and made us feel very, very
25
welcome.
It was like being in someone's living
53
1
In both places we spent three to four
2
hours in conversation with these persons.
3
purposes, what we were -- we approached this as the
4
consumer; what happens from the first phone call from a
5
person who is indicating that they have a diagnosis or
6
they have a need, and then how is their service
7
assessed, how are they -- what's their, what's their,
8
in terms of are they becoming -- do they become a
9
client of rehabilitation or are they independent
10
And for our
living, what are those criteria, how do we make them.
11
So from the day that you get the call
12
how long does it take, we got into the whole waiting
13
period issue.
14
who is recommended for the Training Center, and why,
15
who makes that decision and how.
16
We also asked a lot of questions about
We asked both groups a lot of questions
17
about the difference between what a rehabilitation
18
counselor's job is and that of a teacher.
19
that we have not spoken with a teacher yet in either
20
location, we did not have discussions with teachers.
21
I will say
We do understand that in the western
22
region, teachers and voc. rehab counselors are the same
23
person.
They double-up on that work.
24
In the central region and the eastern
25
region we were told they were separate so they don't
54
1
double-up.
2
And to our person, and I know,
3
Mr. Rodgers, being a boss what it's like having people
4
taught with your staff, but I will say this, that to a
5
person they believe they need more people in order to
6
make the criteria of the work and do as good a job as
7
they think they can do.
8
surprise to anyone here that that would be what would
9
be said.
10
I don't think that seems a
We were very interested in hearing about
11
the System Seven feedback on tracking and reporting,
12
how that works.
13
I think we can also say without being
14
inappropriate that there are inconsistencies within
15
these regions about how those things are interpreted
16
and how then they are done.
17
own personal point of view having listened and read and
18
asked a lot of questions that a lot of discretion is
19
given to vocational rehabilitation counselors on the
20
track of a client.
21
they are not as trained in some areas as we might wish
22
them to be to make some of the decisions that they're
23
asked to make.
24
the Commission to know, as well as the Department of
25
Management to know.
I also would say from my
And I, and they admittedly say that
And I think that that is important for
55
1
An example would be in employment.
We
2
ask questions about, for instance, I find it
3
fascinating, and I'm really glad to hear you talk about
4
a franchise opportunity, when we questioned the notion
5
of franchise-type work, there was an immediate negative
6
response in the staff at the eastern region about that.
7
And we were interested in why that would be so.
8
9
And we didn't get too far down that path
in terms of answers.
But I think within the bureau
10
itself there's a reaction to the notion of franchise
11
being a part of the work that's done for the clientele.
12
So I think it's important for us to make that clear.
13
We were fascinated by the difference in
14
philosophy and approach towards those individuals who
15
are receiving vocational rehabilitation counseling and
16
ultimately a job, and those who are coming in as
17
independent living clients.
18
of questions and followed up a long way about why that
19
is.
20
And we did, we asked a lot
And then we learned about funding and
21
how more funding follows vocational rehabilitation than
22
independent living.
23
us that the numbers of consumers needing independent
24
living services are rising because our population in
25
Michigan is aging and those persons such as the
And yet it was also made clear to
56
1
gentleman you spoke of, Ed, who is elderly and doesn't
2
want to learn Braille but needs help doing certain
3
things is expected to go through a training designed
4
for someone much younger likely who is probably going
5
to go out into the job market, and yet that person
6
doesn't have the, is not empowered to make that
7
decision for him or herself, and there's, there's
8
resistance toward that.
9
And as Commissioners, we are, get --
10
Mr. Gaynor and I were taking this approach from the
11
point of view of the consumer.
12
to approach this, and what would our reaction to this
13
be?
14
of that training if I were 80 and simply trying to
15
learn to live on my own or continue to live on my own
16
in my house.
That's how we're trying
I would personally not want to go through as much
17
And what we heard was there is a
18
disconnect about that at the region level, at the
19
counselor level.
20
a cultural philosophy within the bureau that I know
21
you're having to address, and we sort of helped uncover
22
that a little bit, it made for an interesting
23
conversation.
24
25
So I think that there's a philosophy,
We also heard that it was within the
bureau and within the profession that the, there's a
57
1
perception of inequity in compensation between those
2
who are vocation rehabilitation counselors and those
3
who were teachers.
4
the funding follows counseling and not independent
5
living, which is primarily handled by teachers.
6
And it was pointed out to us yet
So we're learning a lot and we're not
7
completely understanding all that we're learning, so we
8
will continue to ask questions.
9
back.
We will ask to go
Not only have you not made it to the western
10
side yet, but we will ask to go back to these regional
11
areas and talk more with other people.
12
fascinated by what they do and how they do it and how
13
dedicated they are to it, there's no question about
14
that at all, and how well intended and mission-driven
15
people are clearly.
16
We're
We heard a lot of great stories about
17
how the counselors are constantly being called by their
18
clientele who have moved on who have, who are
19
independent, but yet that counselor is their
20
touch-stone, so to speak, about helping out and what's
21
normal, I'm facing this how I continue on.
22
don't deny those people, they make those phone calls,
23
they answer those questions.
24
out of a person's day or week when that's required of
25
them.
And they
And that's a lot of time
And you don't not address needs in people who
58
1
have needs when you're a counselor and I appreciate
2
that.
3
We asked to see work space in both
4
places and to meet people.
5
cases.
6
several hundred people I can say that work environment
7
matters in terms of productivity.
8
to see what type of locations and environments we are
9
asking people to work in.
10
We were pleased in both
I think as a manager of multiple locations and
And I wanted, myself
In these two situations their work
11
environments are outstanding and they acknowledge that.
12
They're comfortable, they're well-lit, they're clean,
13
they're organized, and people were very friendly.
14
both cases the commissioners, we were all met in a work
15
environment office area itself very warmly.
16
were pleased that we were there.
17
In
People
In the central region it was stated to
18
us how pleased they were that commissioners were
19
interested enough to come out and do this, to ask
20
questions and to see what was going on in terms of the
21
work.
22
We -- I'm trying to think.
We did have
23
the opportunity to have a meal after our meeting at the
24
eastern region in the BEP Cafe and that -- what is it,
25
the old G.M. building, is that what it is?
59
1
MR. RODGERS:
2
MS. PARKER:
Yes.
I mean as a non-Michigander
3
I still don't know my landmarks.
But that one was just
4
gorgeous, by the way.
5
counselor's who we had met with all day happened to be
6
there before us and mentioned to the owner that we were
7
commissioners and he rolled out the red carpet and it
8
was great.
9
and we talked to his staff a little bit and the food
We did eat there and one of the
And we were able to ask about what he does
10
and the coffee were fantastic, so we wanted to report to
11
you on that.
12
I am, I am, I am very optimistic as a
13
citizen that what we try to accomplish through the
14
Bureau for the Blind Persons is the best that we can,
15
but as a manager myself, I am not so optimistic that we
16
are accomplishing it as efficiently as we can.
17
And I agree with Commissioner Sibley
18
from what I've heard myself and what I've listened to
19
that in our own department we are separate in many ways
20
and not talking across lines so that we are not able to
21
individualize our services the way we might if we were
22
talking across our lines.
23
So I'm hoping that out of this work that
24
the commissioners are doing that we're able to provide
25
the department with enough with good information that
60
1
let's you go into the department and ask different
2
questions.
3
And I know that Commissioner Gaynor
4
wanted to talk about some things that he felt were
5
important too, so I'll let you do that now.
6
MR. GAYNOR:
Thank you.
7
Well, I too, Joe, agree with you that we
8
need more working together on things, and it would --
9
but when we looked at where we are, we kind of think
10
that it all begins with us and in the consumer services
11
at voc. rehab to get to the other two programs so if we
12
can kind of get the beginning straightened out then
13
maybe everything will flow downhill from there.
14
But we're still, as Josie said, we're
15
still in the information gathering stage and there's a
16
lot out there and still a lot to digest.
17
But Sue, I definitely thank you again,
18
as always, for keeping our inbox full with all the
19
information.
20
think about vocational rehab was they said that
21
rehabilitation is deciding what the client needs and
22
not what the client wants.
23
And -- but as a general statement what I
There seems to be, with both offices
24
there seems to be a problem in that area but what so
25
we're overlooking at is how they decide what is needed
61
1
and that that is equitable and as fair as possible
2
across, across the state.
3
So when it comes to referrals that, when
4
we asked about referrals they said that, well, some
5
doctors refer.
6
own and call in.
7
the youth program.
8
be anywhere that is really lit up to send people to the
9
bureau.
Most people find the bureau on their
Some school districts, not all, refer
And are just, there doesn't seem to
It's almost as though it needs, we need to,
10
and I know Sue is gone right now, but a little more
11
P.R. out there, a little more public awareness of what
12
the bureau actually does and that it's, that it's out
13
there and that it can help a lot of people.
14
So we asked, as mentioned earlier, about
15
the intake, what if, what happens when someone calls
16
for a service.
17
are asked; one is their age, and the other is do you
18
want to work.
19
will go as far as between independent living or voc.
20
rehab or obviously youth transition.
21
And there are two main questions that
And the age determines which way they
And so 55 is, seems to be a breaking
22
point, that anything over 55 is funneled to independent
23
living automatically, and under 55 is, is assigned to a
24
rehab, a rehabilitation counselor.
25
And so we were asking what if you're 57,
62
1
you know, what if you're, what exactly, you know, what
2
if you're 54.
3
guideline was established by the state years ago.
4
And we were told that the 55-year-old
So that's, we're looking at that.
And I
5
think they understood where we were going but that's
6
the rule.
7
to go back to work, which we have an example sitting at
8
this table.
And so if you are older than 55 and you want
9
MS. PARKER:
Or state work.
10
MR. GAYNOR:
Or state work, exactly.
11
we're working on that and we're talking to them about
12
that.
So
13
If they are 55 or below and end up being
14
assigned to a voc. rehab -- excuse me, a rehabilitation
15
counselor in the voc. rehab program, then the process
16
begins.
17
each step should take.
18
there are federal guidelines, however, they're in our,
19
the State's policies and procedures, and then each step
20
is given a certain amount of time if I didn't say that.
21
And there are guidelines set out for how long
The way, I understood I think
So they, when they start the process
22
that would be simply, I mean to just lump it without
23
going into everything that just simply finding --
24
signing the application to get involved, and then
25
getting the eye exam to know that we qualify, and the
63
1
medical report, and then establishing some goals for
2
that client.
3
And that raised another question
4
because then one of the questions that a client is
5
asked is:
6
to have a problem with that question because if you
7
are, if you're raised blind and you've come through the
8
system, that's one thing, you know more things.
9
you're newly blind then you need a little more
10
11
What do you want to do?
And I always seem
But if
direction on what you want to do.
And so I asked if there was a list of
12
former success stories -- not former, but success
13
stories or employers that were open to hiring people or
14
some kind of list that people could be given just so
15
that they could start generating some thought, saying,
16
oh, this is possible.
17
possible, and to being able to kind of turn that corner
18
that if I have an end goal it's not impossible, then
19
these little hurdles along the way, I can learn what I
20
need to learn then go into that.
21
something like that that exists.
22
Like Mike was saying, this is
And there isn't
The voc. rehab counselors share with
23
each other in meetings with what's available and
24
different things and what kind of success stories there
25
were and so depending on the counselor you have, you
64
1
know, that might dictate what you're told.
2
So, I know I'm just kind of trying to go
3
over everything quickly or on the surface but so if you
4
get through the steps, which could take about six
5
months and then you do get through the Training Center
6
or to visually handicapped services and the waiting
7
list then all timetables kind of stop until that
8
happens.
9
college for years, whatever.
Obviously some of the people might go to
But so when we get to our
10
closed cases we wondered why or what, how do you, how
11
do you get a closed case?
12
is what -- and I'm not, this is what we're still
13
looking into, is the bureau receives federal money
14
based on closed case files, success stories.
15
Because it seems like that
So what constitutes a closed case?
16
Would it be employment, which is great, or -- I forgot
17
to say that when we divide this 55 and below age group
18
you were either going to go, you want to go to work or
19
you're classified as a homemaker.
20
can be considered a closed case when you reach the end
21
of that.
22
And a homemaker is,
Now one of the issues is the under 55,
23
over 55, if neither one wants to work they both have
24
the same requirements or whatever or taking care of
25
their home.
And so that's one of -- that's going back
65
1
to the 55 for a second.
2
But as far as closed cases, you have
3
employment and homemakers.
And then also you have
4
where the client just decides I don't want your service
5
anymore so that's a closed case.
6
rehab counselor cannot find the person, period, because
7
every 90 days they're supposed to make contact with
8
people.
9
then there are steps that they go through as far as
Or it can be that the
So after 90 days if they haven't made contact,
10
certified letter, different steps to try to find a
11
person.
12
can be as simple as we couldn't find the person.
If they can't find the person, a closed case
13
So when it comes to the independent
14
living side of it, there are, we don't, it doesn't
15
appear that there are guidelines like that.
16
training is done through a rehabilitation teacher,
17
where in the voc. rehab a doctor might say, well, they
18
need this or they need this and this is kind of
19
training tools that they need.
20
It's the
In the independent living, the
21
rehabilitation teacher determines what, what the client
22
might, what might benefit from.
23
something that they refer to as their tool kit that
24
we're still investigating as what's in the tool kit
25
when they come out to see you that they have their
And they have
66
1
little other things that are going to make you
2
independent.
3
And it just, a lot less money is
4
allocated for independent living, and we're still
5
looking at is it, even though it's smaller is it being
6
used the right way.
7
looking younger all the time, and with macular
8
degeneration and active people, if, once again, if they
9
know something is out there, then they can do it.
Because as we all get older, kids
Not
10
everyone will, but we know that even if you're 30, but
11
if we think that we need services offered to older
12
people.
13
And youth transition starts at age 14,
14
and even on referrals -- I forgot to say school
15
districts, some school districts, believe it or not,
16
according to the counselors, don't refer kids to the
17
program, others do, so we need to look at that.
18
19
My phone's locked so I don't have my
notes.
20
No.
21
Is there something you'd like to add?
22
MS. PARKER:
Sure.
24
MR. GAYNOR:
Okay.
25
MS. PARKER:
There was quite a bit of
23
Excuse me a second.
You made me think of
something.
67
1
discussion in both locations about competition within
2
the state for funds, and services and other departments
3
that overlap somewhat with the Bureau For The Blind and
4
how in every case of all the people we spoke with there
5
was the feeling that the Bureau for the Blind itself is
6
the, gets the leavings, I'll just put it that way, of
7
what's available in terms of support and funding across
8
the state in serving the blind.
9
And while this is not something I know
10
as much as I'm going to know about it by the time this
11
is all over, it is a question of how this works across
12
the state in funding, and it's something that I think
13
at our level we should be more familiar with as we go
14
forward.
15
So I'm bringing that to the full
16
Commissions' attention.
17
help with as commissioners, if the Director asks for
18
that sort of help I can understand why he would.
19
as we talk about legislative issues and the budget,
20
that sort of thing, how is money allocated and how does
21
that work in terms of LARA and the bureau, I think that
22
would be a good thing.
23
work see, see it as an inequity, a great one, and I'm
24
not sure how realistic that is.
25
If that's something we can
And
Because the people doing the
The other thing I would say is that
68
1
there doesn't seem to be any type of coordination about
2
jobs and getting people jobs.
3
lot of energy placed on getting a person trained to
4
work, but that sort of ends.
5
question in more than one way to all of these people,
6
and that was where the conversation ended.
7
They're seems to be a
And we asked that
And I wanted to know:
8
looking out there for jobs?
9
companies?
Who is it who's
Who's talking to the big
Who's trying to get programs in large
10
Michigan based companies?
11
"Pure Michigan" let's talk about keeping people working
12
in Michigan.
13
If we're going to talk about
And I, we were told there isn't a
14
person.
There's no -- that is not a person's job.
The
15
vocational rehabilitation counselors were actually the
16
ones soliciting jobs from different employers, and
17
that, from what I can tell about what their jobs are in
18
delivering services to the clients does not seem
19
appropriate from my, from what I can understand, and I
20
would wonder about that as a Commissioner.
21
So thank you.
22
MS. MOGK:
I will apologize in advance
23
to everyone for having underestimated the time needs
24
for this meeting.
25
behind but if everybody's willing to hang in there we
That's my doing.
So we are running
69
1
will just proceed.
2
3
Ed, if you'd like to respond now and
then we will just take a five-minute break.
4
5
MR. RODGERS:
Okay.
Thank you.
Can I
just say --
6
MR. GAYNOR:
No, go ahead.
7
MR. RODGERS:
Okay.
I was not aware,
8
Commissioners, that you didn't get to talk to any
9
teachers in the east or central visits.
10
us to arrange that?
11
MS. PARKER:
12
MS. MOGK:
13
MR. RODGERS:
14
MS. MOGK:
15
16
Would you like
Yes.
Yes, we will -Consider it done.
We will be asking for
particulars, yeah.
MR. RODGERS:
I've addressed some of the
17
discretion issues above I think as well as the
18
disconnect sometimes between the training and the
19
divisions, and I think some of the System Seven
20
retraining continuing education, whatever we call it,
21
as well as the system being available to everybody will
22
help with communications in the future.
23
be about a six-month project, but I think that in the
24
end this will help eliminate some of the problems with
25
the disconnect and/or the communications.
It's going to
70
1
The comment I thought was kind of
2
interesting about the franchising that apparently the
3
people in the eastern district were negative toward the
4
franchising, I find that interesting because I'm told
5
historically, remember, I wasn't here before
6
October 1st, apparently there in the past has been some
7
franchising, and it worked for a while in at least one
8
location in the east.
9
was terminated, that's where the, some of the basis is
10
But maybe because eventually it
for the negativity.
11
MS. MOGK:
Actually could I address
12
that?
13
say, of that conversation had to do with when we talked
14
about franchising and having particular positions in a
15
franchise situation, they immediately used the term
16
enclave and said that's creating an enclave and you
17
can't do that.
18
My understanding, or my recollection I should
So it was a new word for us.
MS. PARKER:
That's a new word for us.
19
And we actually, we actually asked how is a BEP the way
20
it's set up now not an enclave?
21
MR. RODGERS:
22
MS. PARKER:
23
answer.
24
the conversation.
25
That would be my reaction.
We did not receive an
I'll be truthful with you, that was the end of
MR. RODGERS:
Well, we are finalizing an
71
1
agreement with a consulting firm of two national
2
experts in these programs.
3
Director of the State in Tennessee, and the other one
4
has been a highly successful franchisee of a location
5
in New Jersey.
6
example, have had real success in franchising.
7
One of them is the former
And Pennsylvania and New Jersey, for
So despite some negativism from some of
8
my staff apparently as well as members of the Elected
9
Operators Committee, and some of the operators, we
10
believe that the majority of people are willing to let
11
it go forward because they think it is an opportunity
12
for vendors to increase income and to have more
13
productive facilities.
14
So we're going to move forward on the
15
franchising despite negativism feedback that you have.
16
But we'll address that more further as we go along.
17
The philosophical split I think between
18
V.R. and independent living unfortunately gets down to
19
dollars.
20
example, my budget, give or take a few hundred
21
thousand, is about 26 million this year.
22
of that money, about 18 to 20 million, is voc. rehab
23
money.
24
dedicated to I.L. per se.
25
And it's not the dollars, it's how much.
For
The majority
Only about 1.3 to 1.5 million of that is
And Valerie will probably want to talk
72
1
for a couple minutes when we get there after our break
2
and we get to public comment because she is the
3
Executive Director of the Independent Living Council
4
which I'm a member of, the Governor appointed me to
5
that, so we're going to work in the next year on
6
creative ways to increase the I.L. fund and the
7
services with I.L.
8
9
We're exploring the possibility of
creating a position that will be dedicated just to I.L.
10
services, but again that takes the process of me
11
talking to my department, the civil service and the
12
legislature into allowing me to do that.
13
unfortunately, that's a long time-consuming process.
14
But we are cognizant of that issue and we are working
15
towards resolving some of that.
16
17
18
Okay.
And then,
I think I addressed the
disconnect and the -- and that part of it.
There is a, there is a pay difference
19
between counselors and teachers that presently I have a
20
small task force which is drafting for me a memo
21
because I was shocked and surprised that they didn't
22
make the same salary because they're doing a lot of
23
crossover functions.
24
historically apparently this difference.
25
service creates and has the primary jurisdiction of
And there's always been
And civil
73
1
creating positions and the compensation.
2
they're in charge of all of that and, I have to do,
3
what they say.
4
Unfortunately
For example, my job has a pay scale.
5
Sue Luzenski's job has a pay scale.
6
that pay scale without civil service approval.
7
You can't go above
So we are working on convincing the
8
Department of Civil Service that we need to upgrade so
9
that there is not that differential and hopefully
10
within the next six months we'll be able do that.
11
was a problem we weren't aware of because people did
12
come to me and say are you aware, Director, that some
13
of us are doing the same job are making less money, and
14
I said no, I'm not, as a matter of fact.
15
working on that.
16
MR. GAYNOR:
17
rehab counselor designation would come in?
18
MR. RODGERS:
It
So we are
Is that where the blind
Apparently so.
Apparently
19
that's part of the picture, yes.
I'm not an expert in
20
this area of civil service job specs, et cetera.
21
takes a whole lot of experience and a whole bunch of
22
training to be familiar with all of what civil service
23
does in those areas.
24
division of workers, that's all they do is classify
25
positions and decide what a position should be called
It
In fact, they have a whole
74
1
and how much money it should make.
2
never tread into those waters.
3
4
So -- and I've
I'm glad to hear that the, that the
visit showed that the work space was good.
5
MS. PARKER:
6
MR. RODGERS:
Uh-huh.
Because I'm from the old
7
school.
8
Happy workers are good workers.
9
can do about money except like I said try to talk civil
10
Some people in this room probably are too.
And there's not much I
service into upgrading.
11
I can to a certain extent make the
12
working area more pleasant and keep it clean and keep
13
it bright and nice.
14
of redoing some of the office space in the Victor
15
Building.
16
Building, and I've made this statement, I've been in
17
government since 1979, I'm presently in an office that
18
is in my opinion the dirtiest, darkest office I've ever
19
had.
20
government.
21
going to get an office that's going to be painted with
22
some clean carpet.
23
people in the Victor Building.
24
25
We're in the process, for example,
If you've been in my office in the Victor
I describe it as the worst office I've had in
And like I say that starts in 1979, so I'm
So we're trying to do that for all
We will then move on from there to our
next facility, and I've only got so much money
75
1
available for reconstruction, cleaning, et cetera,
2
painting, et cetera.
3
space by space because we know it's an issue in some of
4
our areas that you probably haven't seen yet.
5
will continue to work on that.
6
And we're going to do it space by
So we
We do know that there are some missing
7
efficiencies because of communication, because of
8
access to each other, so to speak, like the Training
9
Center I mentioned earlier, training staff as well as
10
11
counselors that are out in the field.
The staff is a good staff.
I want to
12
emphasize that today, anybody listening in or anybody
13
that reads this transcript eventually.
14
describe my staff as 90 percent hardworking, dedicated
15
individuals who, the feedback I'm getting is that
16
they're pleased with some of the changes we're
17
instituting and are getting a chance to be part of
18
making future decisions.
19
I would
The other day, because somebody from the
20
department asked me the question, I was asked how we
21
were getting community feedback.
22
October 1st, it's our count that I have met with
23
approximately 90 either individuals or consumer groups
24
in either one-on-one meetings, large meetings, or
25
medium meetings.
Since I took over on
76
1
For example, I've been before two or
2
three senior groups, the largest one being 10 or 12
3
seniors -- or I'm sorry, the smallest one being 10 or
4
12, and one group with 31 seniors.
5
And so we're going out there and we're
6
getting the message.
7
all of our forms and publications.
8
to be updated and reviewed.
9
charge of that project who's reporting directly to Sue
10
We're in the process of redoing
They're all going
We have a person that's in
Luzenski so I'm sure it will be done correctly.
11
And once, once that's done we have a
12
game plan in terms of getting more information out
13
there, we're in the process of getting someone to take
14
over Sue's responsibilities with the web page.
15
hasn't been finalized yet but we will be using the web
16
more.
17
that are old and book people need to understand that
18
the web is also a viable communication tool.
19
It's the wave of the future.
That
And those of us
One comment I want to make, I want to go
20
back to you for just a second, Joe, so that I don't
21
miss this note, you had given us an example of
22
something that happened before my tenure began with the
23
Fort Custer person from Grand Rapids?
24
MR. SIBLEY:
25
MR. RODGERS:
That's correct.
If you will have that
77
1
person contact me.
If you don't have my business card
2
I'll give you one.
I would like to meet with that
3
person one-on-one.
If transportation is a problem, and
4
he's in Grand Rapids, I'll go Grand Rapids.
5
that on a dozen or two dozen occasions where I've met
6
with people.
7
problems were because certainly the reason we study
8
history is to correct things.
9
things that we've previously dropped the ball on, we
I've done
I'll get to the bottom of what the
And if there's some
10
want to try make sure they don't happen in the future.
11
So if you'll have that person contact me I will
12
certainly meet with them as soon as I can.
13
MR. SIBLEY:
14
MR. RODGERS:
I'll do that.
The over 55 and the under,
15
we are presently, Gary, going through a final draft
16
review of the policy manual.
17
by Leman Jones and some of the voc. rehab counselors
18
and teachers and they're sometime in June supposed to
19
present the draft to me for review.
20
There is a committee led
It's my understanding they are
21
addressing the voc. rehab versus I.L. issue in terms of
22
what I call age discrimination.
23
at age 55, you people wouldn't have even known who Ed
24
Rodgers was.
25
confess to.
If I had quit working
I'm in my 60's and that's as much as I'll
And I plan on working a couple more years
78
1
2
so -The mentoring program is a great idea.
3
Quite frankly I hadn't thought of it.
4
it without calling it that in terms of I've been
5
quietly recruiting several of my friends from The Blind
6
School because we're all here in Lansing into getting
7
involved as volunteers in our program.
8
9
I had thought of
One of them, for instance, is an ex
teacher and wrestling coach who I'm trying to get
10
involved in a sports camp for next year.
11
able to put it together this year but there's a sports
12
camp at the Western Michigan every May that deals with
13
the legally blind and blind individuals.
14
We weren't
But.
The mentoring program is certainly
15
something that I will get on top of.
16
idea, if you don't mind.
17
because I do believe that we have individuals, we have
18
some sitting this audience today that have been
19
successful, while they may be retired now, they clearly
20
were a success when they were in the workforce, people
21
like yourself, Gary.
22
shining examples.
23
I will steal your
And we'll get working on that
People like Michael who are
I was recently at a gathering of some
24
people at MSU with Michael where there were examples of
25
people that would be good mentors.
And I'm sure we can
79
1
find some volunteers who would be willing, if not to
2
meet with people, at least be a phone call or an e-mail
3
away to somebody that they can mentor with.
4
a great idea and I'm going to steal it if you don't
5
mind.
6
MR. GAYNOR:
7
MR. RODGERS:
So that's
No problem.
There are some overlapping
8
of services obviously, and that's where we do agree
9
that communication is, is the most, most important
10
thing that we can do, because if we don't communicate
11
with each other then we can't fulfill the Bureau's
12
complete mission.
13
In terms of coordinating jobs and having
14
a, quote, "job expert", that's one of the items that
15
are, that are on my, my next Christmas list.
16
Christmas list through this year.
17
looks like I have permission to go from 107 to 113
18
employees.
19
budgetary cycle would be to go from 113 to 120, and
20
within that group already are hopefully two positions,
21
one that will be dedicated to the I.L. function, and
22
then one will be dedicated to job specialist, because
23
we do need a job specialist.
I got my
I told you I got, it
I'm greedy, so my goal for the next
24
Thank you.
25
MR. GAYNOR:
May I touch directly on
80
1
that one?
2
MR. RODGERS:
3
MR. GAYNOR:
4
Yes.
Because one of the things
we hadn't gotten to was about job tracking --
5
MR RODGERS:
Yes.
6
MR. GAYNOR -- that after, after a person
7
is employed that someone we followed for 90 days
8
and then after 90 days they're no longer followed.
9
so --
10
11
MR. RODGERS:
Now if I can comment on
that, my understanding from staff was it's six months.
12
13
And
MR. GAYNOR:
We were told by both
offices 90 days.
14
Is that right?
15
MS. PARKER:
Yes, that's what we were
MR. GAYNOR:
And so because then that's
16
17
told.
18
what raised the question that that, if they were
19
employed and working out is a potential for another
20
employee, another blind person.
21
the issues that came up, since you have an employment
22
specialist, was that there's not the time to track
23
that, to make those phone calls.
24
MR. RODGERS:
25
MR. GAYNOR:
And also -- but one of
By the counselors?
Right.
And so therefore
81
1
that can be Number 114, a job tracking specialist.
2
MR. RODGERS:
3
MR. GAYNOR:
And IL being 115.
And so -- but since you
4
brought up the system setup, I know it's going to
5
change.
6
a report that even though we have two cases with all of
7
that paperwork that on a daily basis, R.C. has to input
8
into that, that if they call a client, it goes into
9
System Seven; if they buy a pencil, it goes into System
But the way we understand it right now exists
10
Seven.
11
the two cases that we have where it's just one sheet of
12
paper or electronic?
13
Is there a way that we can get that report for
MR. RODGERS:
14
that.
15
there.
I think we can.
Let's you and I talk about
I think we can find a solution
16
MR. GAYNOR:
17
THE COURT:
Okay.
Let me make another comment
18
about System Seven.
The System Seven organization has
19
been beat up a little bit by the staff.
20
gotten involved in this with Mr. Pemble, and as we've
21
delved into this further, part of the issue is my
22
staff, I want to confess that to you, because here's
23
what they're doing in many instances, not all of them,
24
and probably not a majority of them, but enough to make
25
a significant impact on the data.
But as I've
82
1
A lot of counselors or teachers are
2
doing what great I call case summaries or case notes.
3
The problem is the system also has requirements, and
4
I'm going to use the term because I'm not a computer
5
person, where you have to put certain information in
6
like Box 1, Box 3, Box 5, and Box 7, so that that all
7
comes out when you run the reports that the RSA is
8
satisfied with that information, and that we have data
9
that we can use correctly, how many files were actually
10
closed, why were they actually closed, et cetera.
11
Staff is not taking the time to enter that data because
12
they're just putting in their case notes, their case
13
summary, and they think that that's good enough; quite
14
frankly it's not.
15
MS. PARKER:
That makes sense.
Based on
16
what we heard that would be consistent with what we
17
heard.
18
19
20
MS. MOGK:
Any other questions or
comments?
MR. HUDSON:
A couple of questions.
So
21
Josie and Gary, you were observing at least your
22
account was I believe that some people felt a little
23
under-prepared for some situations that emerged in
24
those vocational rehabilitation offices.
25
think about ongoing training and the power of that to
That makes me
83
1
2
keep people current.
And then I heard also discussions of
3
discrepancies in salary.
My experience with this
4
agency is we're very fortunate to have an organization
5
that is focused on blindness and rehabilitation of
6
blind individuals.
7
an awful lot of the counselors we have came over from
8
the general agency.
9
as general rehabilitation counselors?
However, my understanding is that
To what extent were they prepared
To what extent
10
do we have blind rehabilitation counselors?
11
we have blind rehabilitation teachers and their degrees
12
were aimed entirely at teaching blind people.
13
And I know
So perhaps some of the specialization is
14
or is not in certain parts of the program.
And I don't
15
know to what extent that is salary related.
16
know to what extent that is a feeling of readiness to
17
engage in certain topics.
18
there a quite a difference in the person that came in
19
with some kind training about blind rehabilitation
20
versus a general rehabilitation.
21
ways to approach these things.
I don't
My anecdotal account is that
There are different
22
MR. GAYNOR:
May I address that or --
23
MS. PARKER:
No, go ahead.
24
MR. GAYNOR:
What we've heard is that
25
there's going to be, they would like to establish a
84
1
blind rehabilitation counselor so that those
2
rehabilitation counselors that were not trained in
3
blind rehab, there's a program in Mississippi state
4
that they're going to go through the program and
5
receive the training to be certified.
6
7
That would be a welcomed
MS. PARKER:
And it also follows that
endeavor.
8
9
MR. HUDSON:
other conversation about within the budget cycle of the
10
state and allocation of funding of the state, general
11
rehabilitation tends to get more funding than blind
12
rehabilitation, and so that was a point we were making
13
as far as that goes.
14
MR. RODGERS:
And if I can add a comment
15
to that, that's correct.
16
used is 85 for voc. rehab and 15 for blind, percent
17
that is.
18
MR. HUDSON:
Right now the formula being
But the risky factor is
19
probably blindness doesn't make up 15 percent of the
20
disability people in Michigan and essentially we're
21
doing pretty well on a per client expenditure so
22
optimizing the outcome of that and a readiness to
23
engage in some of the dynamics of funding would be on
24
my list as well.
25
MS. PARKER:
And you're right, and when
85
1
we talked to staff we did not ask the questions about
2
percentages and population and what the demographics
3
were but I didn't think that that information would
4
matter a great deal but we were just looking into --
5
MR HUDSON:
And I've had a chance to
6
look into it a little, and I think they're doing a very
7
good job in many ways and I think the potential if I
8
had to get high quality services is very strong here.
9
MS. MOGK:
Okay.
How about we take a
10
five-minute break and then we will, if anybody has any
11
more questions for Ed, we'll take ten minutes for that
12
and then we'll have 15 minutes of public comment, so
13
we'll finish at 1:00 instead of 12:30.
14
minutes.
15
Okay.
Five
(Brief recess taken.)
16
MS. MOGK:
We'd like to reconvene and
17
let's take ten minutes for any comment that Ed had in
18
general, any questions we have for Ed, or comments on
19
anything, doesn't have to be with regard to the
20
subcommittee reports, but anything else.
21
22
Is there anything issue you'd like to
bring up, a question?
23
MR. SIBLEY:
I have a question for the
24
Chair.
This is just something I've heard back from
25
staff recently so I'd just like your comment.
I'm not
86
1
saying it's good or bad but I've heard recently that
2
the flex time has been eliminated as far as being able
3
to work four ten-hour days as opposed to five eight-hour
4
days, and I also heard that in tele-communities, which
5
in some cases is easier, especially for those a long
6
ways from their office, has also been restricted.
7
you comment to that?
8
9
MR. RODGERS:
Absolutely.
Can
You won't
like my answer maybe and some of the employees didn't
10
like my answer.
11
week 8:00 to 5:00.
12
other offices and bureaus that I've run, as well as my
13
short tenure in this bureau, that the four 10's are not
14
conducive to potentially serving our clients 100
15
percent.
16
We conduct our business five days a
It has been my prior experience in
We evaluated each request individually.
17
I did grant two four 10's.
To say I didn't grant any
18
is incorrect.
19
not substantial enough to grant a waiver to the general
20
rule that you're supposed to work 8:00 to 5:00.
21
is also a LARA position in terms of, some people say
22
it's LARA, some say LARA.
23
also does not grant a lot of the four 10's.
24
probably heard from disgruntled staff who for years
25
have had four 10's.
The rest of them were in my opinion were
This
In any event the department
So you've
And quite frankly a few of them
87
1
were disgruntled.
2
hours a day out of them during the four days they were
3
working.
4
I questioned if we were getting ten
Just based on my review in the bureau so
5
far, I hate to be so harsh, but the reality is that we
6
have a great staff generally, but we have a few low
7
performers.
8
low performers were the ones that were complaining the
9
most and I wouldn't allow them to do the four 10's.
10
And it appears as though a couple of the
In terms of the tele-commuting, the
11
tele-commuting is something that doesn't work real well
12
within the organizational structure.
13
my prior experience as well my experience with this
14
bureau that at least for now we're not going to allow
15
tele-commuting until I get a sense of who the good
16
performers are and who the low performers are. It's
17
just that simple.
18
It has also been
It's a management tool.
That doesn't mean that we won't re-visit
19
it.
As a matter of fact, staff yesterday got a lengthy
20
report from me in an e-mail which I called Status
21
Report at the end of my first six or seven months.
22
discussed all of the issues that there may be grumbling
23
about.
24
revisit this again at the end of the calendar year, and
25
that people pursuant to departmental regulations and
It
I explained to staff that in fact we would
88
1
procedures can resubmit a new request starting with the
2
January of 2014.
3
So while some people are not satisfied
4
with that decision, the buck stops someplace, and in
5
this case it stops with me, and I've made those
6
decisions and we'll review them again if there's
7
reapplications in December.
8
9
MS. MOGK:
I have a question/comment
that may have to do with cross-communication but not
10
among these, this, not within this department but
11
outside that came up at our BEP meeting and we were
12
trying to get a handle on the different types of
13
positions people had.
14
And Constance said, well, some people
15
have the vending machine routes.
16
how do they get from place to place along the highway?
17
And she said well some drivers drive.
18
well how are they doing that if they, if they are
19
legally blind?
20
21
MR. RODGERS:
And so I said, well,
And so I said
Gary and I think that's a
great question.
22
MS. MOGK:
Are they using myopic
23
telescopes?
She said well, I don't know, some of them
24
are, some of them aren't.
25
have a legally blind vendor traveling, driving a car,
So my question is:
If you
89
1
are you liable?
2
there any exploration into that and how someone is
3
going to get to their routes before they're given the
4
route?
5
And is there any is there any, is
MR. RODGERS:
I, in terms of the
6
liability question I'll put the lawyer hat back on for
7
a minute.
8
department's in concurrence with this, we have no
9
liability as to a vendor out there on the highway,
It's my considered opinion, and I think the
10
meaning the department or the bureau, because remember
11
BEP operators are not state employees.
12
MS. MOGK:
Right.
13
MR. RODGERS:
They are independent
14
entrepreneurs.
15
state government is number one, for client assistance
16
if they're entitled, we're training them and helping
17
them get an operation going, and hopefully helping them
18
to continue.
19
with promotional agents.
20
The only two connections they have with
That's why they call the people they work
And beyond that, however, they're also
21
part of the retirement system, which us unique.
It's
22
my understanding we're the only state the country that
23
allows vendors to be involved in the retirement system.
24
So in terms of the liability question I don't think we
25
have liability.
90
1
In terms of whether or not they should
2
be driving and how they get from route to route, it's
3
my understanding from staff that some have drivers that
4
they pay for out of their own gross or net proceeds,
5
some use relatives, some use spouses.
6
One of my favorite quotes from Hubert
7
Humphrey, who I'm a fan of, in fact I once in college
8
wrote a paper on him as a public speaker, Vice
9
President, former senator and Vice President Humphrey
10
in a speech one time made a joke, he said, you know, in
11
the '30's when you went to college -- originally he was
12
a pharmacist, a lot of people don't know that about
13
him -- what was your, did you have scholarships back
14
then?
15
I had a wife who helped put me through school.
He said yeah, I had the traditional scholarship,
16
So some of our vendors who use spouses
17
and then some are able to drive themselves.
For
18
instance, Tom Carpenter who some of the people in the
19
room know who used to be, use to run the Ottawa
20
Cafeteria, and then took over a vending route for a
21
while, and now is in retirement, Tom had a vision that
22
was correctable enough that he did some driving it's my
23
understanding.
24
also in a similar situation with some corrective
25
devices, Ben is able to drive.
Ben who now runs the auto cafeteria is
So I think it's a case
91
1
by case who's driving and who isn't, and who shouldn't
2
be.
3
M. MOGK:
Okay.
4
MR. HUDSON:
One question; Ed, I wonder
5
to what extent we might be privy to copies of these
6
messages that go out to the whole agency or even to the
7
important -- not individual personnel choices and
8
things but it would help me be more informed about how
9
the dynamics works inside, where pressure points are,
10
because I don't know about that memo that went out.
11
12
MR. GAYNOR:
Then we won't bring up the
same questions I guess.
13
MR. RODGERS:
Some decisions
14
unfortunately I cannot share with you per se.
15
approval or denial of an application for a modified for
16
alternative work schedule is part of the employees
17
file.
18
MR. HUDSON:
19
ones.
20
agency.
Oh, yeah.
The
I meant generic
Big ones, like you had sent a memo to the whole
21
MR. RODGERS:
I sent one out yesterday
22
that I'm certain that I'm willing to share it with all
23
of you.
24
because it's generic.
25
That's a public document and that's what --
MR. HUDSON:
That's what I mean.
92
1
MR. RODGERS:
It simply was a status
2
report to the staff.
You know, I thought it was time
3
for me to say okay, here's what Rodgers has done in the
4
first six or seven months, here's where we plan on
5
going in the future, I wanted to give you an update on
6
where we are because we are spread across the whole
7
state.
8
over the place and we have employees who are in the
9
field a lot.
And we have seven or eight regional offices all
10
MR. HUDSON:
Understood.
I think I
11
would be a better adviser if I knew some of those
12
things.
13
MR. RODGERS:
Well, I will share that
14
with you.
In fact, as I'm talking to you I'm making a
15
note that in the future our generic e-mails, we will
16
share those with you.
17
let Sue Luzenski speak for a second because she has a
18
comment dealing with the setting up of your e-mail
19
addresses so that you all have access to an e-mail box so
20
that anybody can send you e-mails and not have your
21
private e-mail addresses because we talked about that
22
earlier.
That gives me an opportunity to
23
Go ahead, Sue.
24
MS. LUZENSKI:
25
Yeah, just to let you guys know that we
Thank you, Ed.
93
1
have been able set up one e-mail box so it would be a
2
common e-mail box for all of you guys to access.
3
will give you the address of that.
4
internally, I'm going to be the administrator of it, so
5
I'm going to internally do some set-up of it so I have
6
access to it like I do in my regular e-mail.
7
I'm believing that I will have it active by May 28th.
8
So the Tuesday after Memorial Weekend.
9
work on this next week.
10
I
I still have to
And then
I'm going to
So we will send the e-mail address out.
11
Obviously it will go on the Agenda that goes out to the
12
meeting.
13
issue that we've had in the past of where people, the
14
public would send individual commissioners an e-mail to
15
their e-mail address, and then either it would be
16
missed or it wouldn't be shared with all the
17
commissioners, and it would come up in a meeting, and I
18
didn't know anything about it, and so it wasn't able to
19
be considered as public comment or whatever it was
20
intended to be.
21
And then what it's going to do is solve an
And so this way I will be the
22
administrator of it.
You guys will all have the
23
password to it.
24
access the e-mail.
25
speak with you can write an e-mail to this general
I will send you instructions on how to
And so then anybody who wants to
94
1
e-mail box.
2
[email protected].
3
out, you know, we will send that out to the public or
4
whatever so that they know who to contact.
5
something like what Ed and Mike were just talking
6
about, a general staff memo, I can send it to that
7
e-mail address also so that you guys can access it.
8
9
It's just going to be
And I will send that
Then
So, and then also there's no conflict
with you using your personal e-mail address to have a
10
communication with anybody outside the organization or
11
between each other.
12
inform you on that.
13
So, okay, so I just wanted to
MR. RODGERS:
Let me add a footnote to
14
that Sue, and I joked about it coming over here this
15
morning, when she says May 28th, I know some people are
16
early risers, and some people are night owls, don't
17
look for it at 2:00 a.m. on the 28th, okay.
18
after the open of business of 8:00, or even a little
19
bit after because you have to remember we're dealing
20
with the DIT, the Department of Technology, and
21
management and budget.
22
hopeful it will be done by then.
23
24
25
Wait until
So when we say the 28th, we're
Ms. MOGK:
Okay.
Are there any more comments
or questions before we open it up for public comment?
MR. GAYNOR:
Yes.
95
1
MS. MOGK:
Okay.
2
MR. GAYNOR:
We didn't get around to the
3
case load distribution and so that's, that's something
4
that we were looking at and the report that we were
5
sent had one counselor with as many as 330 open cases,
6
and others in the 200's.
7
first comment was:
8
revisited and thought, well, maybe it is.
9
4,000 number that we were given as far as active cases
And when it was addressed the
No one has that many.
Then it was
Well, the
10
includes those counselors who have in the mid 200 and
11
over 300 to make up the 4,000 number, so I just, I
12
don't want to take an answer unless you have one but I
13
thought I just --
14
MR. RODGERS:
15
MR. GAYNOR:
I have a partial one.
I just want to direct that
16
to your attention and if we can get a breakdown of what
17
those cases are.
18
MR. RODGERS:
What we have discovered is
19
there are some counselors carrying some numbers.
20
cases are really closed and were never closed properly.
21
MR. GAYNOR:
22
MR. RODGERS:
The
Okay.
And that's part of the
23
issue I alluded to earlier in System Seven where people
24
are not making entries into the Box 1, 2, 5, or 7 which
25
officially the case notes may say it's closed, but if
96
1
they haven't put the data in that other box, they may
2
think it's closed, but it's not, under the system.
3
And then we're addressing that with
4
System Seven.
And actually we met last week and I was
5
going to make this in my general comment, which will be
6
very short, I've talked so much this morning, I think
7
we've covered just about everything, we met with RSA
8
last week for a day and-a-half and this is what they
9
call a technical meeting.
It's non-audit, although we
10
addressed some potential audit issues as well as some
11
financial issues, and RSA is working with us and with
12
System Seven to help correct some of those problems so
13
that our reports are totally accurate.
14
get credit for closures and we don't give credit if
15
there really isn't a closure.
16
And that we do
We've also discovered inadvertently that
17
some files may have been opened that shouldn't have
18
been opened.
19
into all kinds of details, it's an issue we're aware of
20
that the numbers don't look right necessarily.
21
It was premature.
MR. GAYNOR:
But without getting
Along the same line, the
22
RSA report, does that only show voc. rehab, or is
23
independent living on there?
24
when you see an average wage that a blind person earns,
25
is that, Jeff, is that tied in with the voc. rehab
And the average salary
97
1
numbers on the RSA?
2
Does any of that make sense?
MR. RODGERS:
Our reports are separate
3
from what MRS sends to RSA, but now you're getting into
4
an area where I confess I'm a book guy, not a computer
5
guy.
6
to how those numbers are created or put together.
So I'm not sure, but I will get you an answer as
7
MR. GAYNOR:
Because part of the reason
8
that it comes up, if you were told that if you increase
9
the age over 55 and you get more into voc. rehab and
10
out of I.L. that if those people aren't going to work,
11
then it would lower the average salary of, of the
12
closed case.
13
affect federal funding?
14
return for the dollars invested, does that affect
15
funding in some way?
16
And that, I was just wondering, does that
Like if we're showing a low
MR. RODGERS:
Well, it may, but keep in
17
mind that most of our federal funding is based on,
18
number one, the matched dollars that we've gone down
19
on.
20
placement and I end up getting 4 million from the feds
21
to help with job placement.
22
factors involved.
23
were here today.
24
have global answers but not the specific answers.
25
So, for example, if I spend $1 million on job
So there's a lot of
And this is where I wish Mike Pemble
He understands all of this.
And I
It's my understanding in terms of the
98
1
data with V.R. versus I.L. that it's not necessarily
2
true that the average for blind people would go down or
3
go up, depending on where you put an average line for
4
I.L.
5
And I'll give you a personal example.
6
My youngest son just was appointed school principal in
7
Fort Wayne, Indiana.
8
He is going to make next year more money than I made in
9
my first 20 or 30 years of work.
He's been an Assistant Principal.
I am amazed at his
10
salary because he's been out of college since 2000 -- I
11
got to stop and think, 2005.
12
law school, where I'd already taught for a few years
13
and gone to law school, I was making $10,000.
14
think he made 38 or 39 his first year out of college.
15
And my first job out of
And I
So I don't know how those figures would
16
be impacted, but just to point out what I know Joseph
17
is going to make next year as a school principal is
18
amazing.
19
compare it across the whole private sector, but I'm
20
not, I'm not sure that that would impact what our
21
average is.
22
Now maybe not by today's salaries when you
I'm not sure how clear those figures are.
MR. GAYNOR:
But our average doesn't
23
dictate how many dollars, because it was kind of
24
inferred.
25
MR. RODGERS:
No, no, no.
There's a
99
1
whole formula basis there.
2
MS. MOGK:
Actually as a little
3
clarification I think of this, what, what we were told
4
is that the average salary of blind people is
5
calculated, including the homemaker group, whose salary
6
is zero.
7
MS. PARKER:
8
MR. RODGERS:
9
That's what we were told.
I can't say yes or no
because I don't know the answer.
10
MS. MOGK:
So the salary is less than it
11
actually is because there's, we have more homemakers up
12
to age 55.
13
more zeros calculated into the average salary so it
14
looks worse.
15
If we have more homemakers, there will be
MR. RODGERS:
I'll tell you what we'll
16
do for you, and he's going to kill me, I will, I will
17
have Mike Pemble put together a brief e-mail for you in
18
the next couple weeks.
19
assignment the rest of this week, and then he and I are
20
at the BEP conference next week, so it won't be in
21
until after Memorial Day.
Now Mike is on special
22
MR. GAYNOR:
23
MR. RODGERS:
Will that be by the 28th?
That's what I'm hoping.
24
I'm hoping that the first week or two that you have
25
your e-mail box that you'll get something in your
100
1
hands.
He's usually pretty good.
2
employee because when I ask him to do something, he
3
knows it becomes his priority for the day.
4
confess that a small percentage of my employees when I
5
give them a task don't realize that's supposed to
6
become their priority.
7
the list but that's a culture --
8
9
He's a great
I have to
They put it on the bottom of
MS. PARKER:
And you'll be relieved to
know in our conversations about the case load numbers,
10
there wasn't a person we talked to about the numbers
11
when we said this is showing 300 or so cases per
12
person, not a single one of the individuals we met with
13
from the consumer services believed that that was
14
possible.
I mean it was a clear reaction of that's not
15
possible.
And after, because of just physically not
16
possible, could not keep up.
17
important that you know that.
18
said, oh, yeah, yeah, we can handle 350 cases.
19
did that.
20
they didn't see how in the world anyone -- they were
21
like all shocked and dismayed about that.
22
MR. RODGERS:
And I think it's
They did not -- no one
No one
It was clear that, it was, it was clear that
It obviously hurts my
23
argument with the department and the legislature when I
24
go for those other positions next year.
25
MS. PARKER:
Just to let you know.
101
1
MR. RODGERS:
2
MS. MOGK:
Thank you.
Actually we have one more
3
item that I missed, and that is just to identify
4
meeting dates for the rest of the year.
5
MR. RODGERS:
Before we get to that can
6
I make about a two-minute comment then it’s done for
7
the day, then I'll shut-up, because I, like everybody
8
else in the room is hungry.
9
The only thing I didn't touch on with
10
detail I think this morning, and you're probably tired
11
of hearing my voice, is the franchising.
12
to bring you up to speed as to where we are.
13
the process of the franchising agreement with the
14
company being drafted.
15
the legislative attorneys, the legislature has their
16
own attorneys, not the attorney general, and both the
17
legislative legal staff, the LARA legal staff, which is
18
basically me I guess, and my law clerk, and the
19
Attorney General's Office will review the agreement,
20
and we hope to have the agreement, knock on wood,
21
signed by early to middle of June.
22
And I wanted
We are in
Once it is drafted we will have
And once that's accomplished then there
23
will be an announcement as to what's going to happen
24
next with the Anderson/State Plate in that building,
25
that facility.
I think you'll be pleased when you hear
102
1
the announcement as to who's going to be in there, and
2
how we're going to move forward.
3
We already are looking at a second
4
facility for franchising.
5
priority list by the Governor's office and DMV as to
6
where they'd like to try franchising at other
7
locations.
We're already starting on that project.
8
9
We have been given a
Now a lot of this information at this
point is not available because it's either attorney
10
client and/or is still verbal.
11
you to a certain extent it had to be that way because
12
announcements and information being released
13
prematurely sometime will squash the negotiations, and
14
so it's been a real sensitive thing.
15
And to be honest with
I have felt like a juggler this year in
16
that I've had to work with DTMB, my department, the
17
legislature, and the private sector, and at the same
18
time doing my job, you know, protecting the bureau's
19
interest.
20
page some days has been difficult.
So getting all those parties on the same
21
So I believe you will, you will be
22
pleased when you hear our announcement in early to
23
middle June.
24
Everybody's been working hard to get this done and
25
we've had total cooperation from the legislature.
Everybody has been enthusiastic.
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1
That's why I said earlier, Joe, that I
2
wasn't that concerned with the introduction of bills.
3
Keep in mind especially if you're in the majority
4
party -- you could basically introduce any bill that
5
says anything, and that doesn't mean it's going to go
6
anyplace beyond the first printing.
7
stage that I think those bills are at this point is
8
that they're just simply printed and that's it.
9
So, and that's the
So thank you very much.
10
MR. HUDSON:
I have one more thing.
To
11
the extent this is possible, Sue, and I don't know how
12
it will be, but I set up an account that I could
13
retrieve e-mails for this purpose separate from others
14
so I'll share, I've had this for a while, I've told a
15
few people from the public who have inquired,
16
[email protected] could be a way to reach
17
me.
18
distribute messages from to that point, I wouldn't have
19
to remember to think to go in logging into another
20
account.
21
some of these.
And to the extent that your building can
That way I think it would be more timely on
22
So thank you.
23
MS. LUZENSKI:
Okay.
I'm writing that
24
down, and I'll clarify that I wrote it down right, and
25
then I can send stuff to that also.
104
1
MR. HUDSON:
2
MS. MOGK:
Yes, thank you.
Okay.
If you can't, if
3
everybody here can't confirm this at this time, that's
4
okay, but the dates I would like to propose are
5
Thursday, September 26th, which is the fourth Thursday,
6
simply because I'm out of town the third Thursday, and
7
Thursday, November 21st, which is the third Thursday,
8
it's the week before Thanksgiving.
9
MS. LUZENSKI:
Okay.
The only thing
10
that I need to confirm about November 21st is there's a
11
national meeting that Ed always attends and I had sent
12
an e-mail to somebody asking when it was scheduled for
13
the fall.
14
the third week in November, because it's been both.
15
And so we can plan for the 21st but that may change.
It's either the second week in November or
16
MS. MOGK:
17
Okay.
It may need to be changed.
Do those two sound okay for the
18
commissioners?
It's Thursday, September 26th;
19
Thursday, November 23rd.
20
MR. SIBLEY:
Okay.
21
MS. PARKER:
I would not be able to
22
attend in November but I can in September.
23
24
25
MS. MOGK:
If it were that particular
week?
MS. PARKER:
Yes, it's that particular
105
1
day.
2
3
MS. LUZENSKI:
to the first week in December maybe, anybody?
4
5
MS. MOGK:
What about the first week in
December?
6
MS. PARKER:
7
That's December 5th.
(Discussion off the record.)
8
9
You want that it be moved
MS. MOGK:
is:
So, so December, the question
Is Thursday, December 5th all right?
And the
10
response was that would take care of the conflicts in
11
November for both Ed and Josie.
12
MR. RODGERS:
Just so the record
13
reflects that the meetings that Sue is speaking about
14
is when all the national directors get together, both
15
in voc. rehab, which I attend part of that, because the
16
overlap that we talked about earlier today, as well as
17
the Director of the Blind Services, and those meetings
18
were very productive.
19
when I was able to start networking with some of the
20
other directors in other states.
21
type of networking because if other people have done
22
something that hasn't worked, I'd like to know about it
23
before I try it.
24
25
It really helped me last year
MS. MOGK:
And I'm big on that
All right.
Okay.
we're ready for public comment, questions.
I think
106
1
Would anyone here like to say anything?
2
MS. LUZENSKI:
3
Can I make a statement
first?
4
MS. MOGK:
Sure.
5
MS. LUZENSKI:
About public comment, for
6
people who are on the phone, we're handling it a little
7
bit differently.
8
generally does anybody want to make a public comment,
9
we're going to be going into what's called a broadcast
Where before we've just asked
10
mode, and so people on the phone will hear a recorded
11
AT&T operator saying that we are entering a question
12
and answer mode, if you would like to ask a question,
13
please press one, then zero on your keypad.
14
And then they will be put into to a que
15
to make a live public comment.
16
streaming people will be, they'll see there's people in
17
the que so that we know for sure that people are
18
interested in making a public comment, and then they
19
will activate the first person in line, then the second
20
person in line.
21
People can, you know, line-up, to know that they're
22
waiting to make a public comment.
23
there will not be any back and forth with
24
commissioners.
25
But then the audio
So it's a little more organized.
MS. MOGK:
Right.
And then -- but
107
1
MS. LUZENSKI:
They will be, they'll be
2
able to speak, we'll be able to hear them, but at that
3
point in the que we can't talk back to them.
4
MS. MOGK:
Right.
5
MS. LUZENSKI:
And then again, we're
6
limiting public comment to three minutes for everybody,
7
so thank you.
8
MS. MOGK:
9
JOE SONTAG:
10
Okay.
Yeah, it is.
Joe?
Is this thing on?
Yeah.
Joe Sontag here and
11
just a couple things very briefly, since Ed was just
12
talking a bit ago about legislation that could have a
13
negative impact on the program.
14
we're watching in the National Federation of the Blind
15
of Michigan is HB 4549 which does not single out the
16
business enterprise program particularly, but if passed
17
would forbide state government from engaging in
18
business activities in direct conflict with the public
19
sector.
20
Another bill that
And again, this is, the bill's been
21
printed and it's been referred to the House Oversight
22
Committee and there's no indication that anything's
23
happened with it yet, but we are very concerned and we
24
are watching.
25
On the topic of the business enterprise
108
1
program also as a, as a licensed -- well, as a once
2
licensed operator and potential operator that we may
3
re-enter at some point, in response to the question
4
about the adversarial attitude that often seems to
5
exist between operator and the agency, this is just my
6
opinion, but it's only grown stronger over the years,
7
is that there has been a growing disconnect between,
8
between the program-stated policies and rules, how
9
they're applied, and who's expected to follow them
10
11
versus who's allowed to get a pass.
And that, frankly, in my opinion, has
12
contributed not only to this, this adversarial
13
situation but also to some of the extreme difficulties
14
that the program currently finds itself in.
15
one, regardless of what ends up happening with my
16
future in the program, I, for one, hope that we can get
17
to the bottom of the business of having our operators
18
act more like business people and having business
19
enterprise staff act more like professional managers
20
and promotional agents and so forth as opposed to the
21
chaos that has existed in this program for some years
22
now in my opinion.
23
Thank you.
24
MS. MOGK:
25
MR. RODGERS:
And I, for
Yes.
Just wanted to end on
109
1
Joe's comments about House Bill 4549, Joe, we are on
2
top of that, just so that you know.
3
MR. SONTAG:
Okay.
4
MR. RODGERS:
I've talked to the people
5
in the Legislative Service Bureau that will be doing an
6
analysis.
7
as though the opinion is, and hopefully if the bill
8
moves forward it will be amended, that the BEP program
9
per se would not be in competition with private
10
It's unofficial at this time but it appears
enterprise.
11
Granted, technically, we may be
12
competing with Bigby's Coffee across the street or
13
something, okay.
14
the program and the people that have to qualify for the
15
program, and the fact that it receives federal funding,
16
and also the fact that there's both federal and state
17
laws governing it, the opinion appears to be that with
18
at least in a large percentage of the legislature that
19
this bill would not eliminate the BEP program.
20
wanted to make that more clear.
21
there.
However, because of the uniqueness of
22
MS. MOGK:
23
MR. POSONT:
Okay.
But I
I agree with you
Larry?
My name is Larry. This is
24
the first meeting I've been to since BSBP was formed.
25
Several things that I would believe, there was really
110
1
not much discussion, very little discussion today that
2
I believe is the single biggest issue in the Commission
3
for the Blind or BSBP is training of the staff.
4
training of the staff for the front line people who get
5
services to blind citizens of the state.
6
there's no uniformity and direction of the training of
7
the staff, it will breakdown.
8
many years.
9
The
And if
And we've seen that for
It's clear that when you have a general
10
rehab person who has gotten a degree in counseling or
11
rehabilitation, or -- and comes from a general agency,
12
then somebody who has some skill, some training on
13
blindness, we do not train enough with our new staff
14
and our existing staff to make that a uniform across
15
the board to make it work.
16
between the counselors and the Training Center.
17
seen it and I see that as a president of the National
18
Commission of the Blind.
19
There's a big breakdown
We've
I'm on the Internet pretty widely now
20
and three years ago I didn't have an e-mail but today
21
people say that I went from zero e-mails to 50 a day.
22
And I'm, I'm sent e-mails and I'm called almost daily
23
now, and there is a breakdown between the training of
24
our staff or their philosophy of blindness, and if we
25
don't solve that we will not solve many of the other
111
1
issues in this agency.
2
The one thing that I heard today which
3
disturbs me, and I haven't had much discussion with our
4
organization or people that we've heard, is talking
5
about adding a third nurse at The Training Center.
6
Training Center was originally purchased with money
7
from hospitals.
8
are we going to have clients?
9
breakdown and training of the staff we are probably not
The
And are we going to have patients or
And I think with the
10
ready to go there yet, but I think that's a breakdown
11
of the counselors, and the people who first interview
12
are people who are coming to the Training Center.
13
MS. LUZENSKI:
14
MR. POSONT:
30 seconds.
I believe if we continue
15
going back to a segment of nurses, we're going to go
16
back to patients, not clients.
17
the Training Center numbers, there are 25.
18
have 30 or 40 or 50.
19
rehab clients and put them out in housing, in apartment
20
and it would be very beneficial because that's what
21
they would have had at home.
And the other thing is
We used to
We can take the clients who are
22
That's it for this time.
23
MR. RODGERS:
Thank you.
Just one brief response.
24
Our experience has been that the reason we need R.N.s
25
is not because necessarily we're taking into the center
112
1
all kinds of health cases.
2
a 24/7 operation, and at night there may well be
3
emergencies which go beyond any health issue.
4
Accidents happen, people fall down.
5
to be normal and are doing okay discover they have a
6
blockage and have a coronary.
7
reasons to have, especially in the night shift, R.N.s
8
there.
9
It's because the center is
People who appear
There's all kinds of
So that's the emphasis for the staff
10
person who will be working in the dormitory area to be
11
an R.N.
12
have somebody working in that area, not a voc. rehab
13
counselor, but somebody working in the dormitory area,
14
almost like a dormitory house parent, if I can use that
15
term.
16
have their R.N. degrees because of the uniqueness of
17
the center.
18
19
20
So our goal is to have it, because we have to
But it's helpful also that they are, that they
MR. POSONT:
So at a regular rehab
center you wouldn't need round the clock nurses?
MR. RODGERS:
It's my understanding, and
21
if I'm wrong I'll send you an e-mail, it's my
22
understanding that some of the people that supervise
23
the dormitory at the Michigan Rehabilitation Services
24
Training Center are also R.N.s, so this appears to be
25
somewhat of a model for 24/7 facilities.
113
1
MS. MOGK:
I might just throw in, an
2
EMT, certainly they do emergency services and the
3
Training Center is within reach of a hospital, so an
4
EMT would be a lot more economical.
5
MR. RODGERS:
Well, believe it or not I
6
think EMTs, I discussed this with finance, EMTs
7
apparently, at least in the state system, would make
8
more money than the R.N.s.
9
10
MS. MOGK:
That's not true in the
outside world.
11
MR. RODGERS:
I know it isn't.
For
12
instance, a woman who went to high school with my
13
daughter that works in the Sparrow System, and she's an
14
R.N. and she's been out of school six years, and she is
15
now making 65,000.
16
under 40.
17
Our R.N.s are paid I believe still
MS. BARNUM-YARGER:
Good afternoon.
I'm
18
Valerie Barnum Yarger and I have the pleasure of being
19
staffed to the State Wide Independent Living Council.
20
Is this on?
21
Thank you.
22
I have the pleasure of being staffed
23
with the State Wide Independent Living Council.
We are
24
a Governor appointed council who is charged to
25
develop the Michigan State Plan For Independent Living
114
1
and we are mandated under the federal regulations to
2
have a network of centers for independent living across
3
the state, as well as other independent living services
4
for individuals.
5
Our office is one of the offices that
6
Ed's had to juggle for the last few months because we
7
are in the process of writing the Michigan State Plan,
8
which is three-year plan.
9
at this point in time.
10
It is out for public comment
Please know that BSBP did have
11
involvement in development of it.
12
date they have not been at the table.
13
is not perfect.
14
find the draft plan.
15
through noon on Monday.
16
It will then be provided to Ed, to MRS, as well as my
17
executive committee for review, and any adjustments
18
that need to be made in the plan before it is submitted
19
June 30th.
20
There's never been a
We know the plan
If you go to www.MISILC.org, you will
We are taking public comments
All of that will be compiled.
The plan is signed by Ed on behalf of
21
BSBP; Lou, on behalf of MRS; and it will be signed by
22
my executive committee.
23
it will allow Michigan to continue getting your older
24
blind funds and Part B funds.
25
how I.L. should look in the State of Michigan.
Once that plan is submitted,
It is a blueprint for
115
1
In response to your question on
2
reporting, I don't know how it's reported within the
3
department.
4
closure numbers for the 26s and the 28s, but your
5
service numbers are included in the state's 704 that
6
our office submits.
7
signature of both departments as well as the council.
8
9
But I will tell you that BSBP numbers, not
And again, that is under the
It is truly a partnership program,
even though it is a three-year plan, and I realize
10
you've all just started on yours, realize this, that
11
it's amended yearly as we need to.
12
MS. LUZENSKI:
30 seconds.
13
MS. BARNUM-YARGER:
14
forward to your continued input and involvement.
15
I, as an independent living person, I'm so glad to know
16
that you guys are taking the time to look into it.
Yeah.
17
Thank you.
18
MS. MOGK:
19
No, no one on the phone?
20
MS. LUZENSKI:
21
MS. MOGK:
22
MR. RODGERS:
23
We look
And
Is there any call-in?
No phone calls.
Anyone else?
Karen, did you want to say
anything?
24
MS. KAREN EVANS:
25
MR. RODGERS:
Me?
You took the time to come
116
1
here today.
2
MS. KAREN EVANS:
I'm really impressed
3
with how the meeting went today and appreciate the
4
conversation flowing on what's happening for blind
5
individuals.
6
MR. HUDSON:
Do we have a sense of how
7
well the phone worked today?
8
have a single call.
9
It puzzles me we wouldn't
MS. LUZENSKI:
Good job, Mike.
10
VIDEO TECHNICIAN:
11
No, they didn't.
12
(Inaudible.)
13
MR. HUDSON:
They hung up.
Go ahead.
I'd like to make a motion
14
that we employ a blind person to get this audio thing
15
to sync up for the next meeting.
16
17
MS. PARKER:
Is it possible to talk to
him and get his question?
18
UNKNOWN CALLER:
19
MS. MOGK:
(Inaudible.)
The statement from the caller
20
was that he was extremely frustrated and irritated by
21
the communications system which prevents his hearing
22
what we were saying, thus questioning the transparency
23
of the committee, and indeed questioning the intention
24
with respect to transparency.
25
UNKNOWN CALLER:
(Inaudible.)
117
1
MR. RODGERS:
Madam Chair, my comment
2
would be that I'm just as frustrated as everybody else
3
in the room.
4
I won't tell you what I just said to her, it's not for
5
the record, but what I did say is we're going to have
6
to contract this work out and get a professional in
7
here who is going to make sure that our September
8
meeting is audible.
9
listen to it, as well as audible on this end so that we
10
11
I just whispered to Sue Luzenski -- well,
Anybody who wants to go out and
can hear it.
MS. MOGK:
Okay.
If there are no other
12
comments, then we will adjourn this meeting.
13
everyone for coming.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Meeting adjourned at 1:35 p.m.)
Thanks